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$200-$500 bino's recommendation

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike650 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2009 at 21:09
   Thunbs Up
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Klamath View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Klamath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2009 at 21:32
OK, for the record lets clear this ZR thing up a bit.  Here is the essence of my relationship with Zen Ray Optics.  When I first became aware of them, I jumped to the erroneous conclusion that they were a Chinese Mfr. who had set up shop over here.  I sent them a somewhat pointed e-mail inquiring about that.  Instead of taking offence the owner briefed me on his company history and surprised the heck out of me by offering to send me both the ZEN ED and ZRS HD binoculars for review purposes.  I said that was fine with me, but he had better get it straight from the start, that I would post what I thought, the good or the bad.  He said that was just what he wanted.
 
After I reviewed them, I spent MY OWN MONEY buying the ZEN ED 8x43 and the ZRS HD 10x42.  I sent the 10x ZEN and 8x ZRS back.  WITH MY OWN MONEY, you get that OK CLR/CZD?
 
I got the chance to meet the Zen Ray owner at the Northwest Sportsman's Show in Portland OR.  Since then, we communicate via e-mail several times a month.  When he began to contemplate the ED 2, I was asked to be part of a beta test group.  I accepted the offer, not because I envisioned jobs or $$$, but because I wanted to and I thought I would learn a lot in the process.  That is LEARN a lot, not EARN a lot, GOT THAT CLR/CZD?
 
When the ZEN ED 2 came out, I was impressed enough to USE MY OWN MONEY to buy two of the ED 2 binoculars.  Right now, I have the 7x36, an 8x43 and 10x43.  I will probably buy the 7x36 and the 8x43.  ZR did grant me the exqusite favor of letting me buy two and send three so I could see if I wanted the 8x or the 10x.  I HAVE BOUGHT THEM WITH MY OWN MONEY, got that this time CLR/CZD?  I DO NOT WORK FOR ZEN RAY.  Got that CLR/CZD?
 
I probably should not surprise me, but I admit that it does, that the severe majority of the flak about the ZEN ED binoculars comes from those who have not, and likely will not try the binocular themselves.  CLR/CZD is a shining example here.  I find some relief from the fact that the vast majority of the people who have used them do in fact have good things to say about them.
 
I try very hard to approach the next look through an optic with no particular expectations.  That even includes the ones that are my personal equipment.  I want to see what the binocular has to say for itself.  As such, I tend to evaluate the strong points first and look for flaws second.  Any binocular ever manufactured has some flaws, and looking for flaws first can ruin the whole optics experience if you let it.
 
It did not take a lot of time for the realization of just how good these ZEN ED binoculars are to make way into my consciousness.  I thought that they would be a deal several hundred dollars more than what they were selling for.  That price/value relationship is the entire reason I posted what I have about them.  Are they true alpha, no, they are not.  But I still think second tier with a third tier price.  Now the buyer who does not want to spend today's $2k, or can't spend that for a binocular does not have to, and can get so close to alpha image that it is really tough to tell the difference.  If CLR/CZD would have done that himself, he might have some clue as to the appeal of these binoculars, but he didn't, so he doesn't.
 
CLR/CZD, you called me a propagandist.  I will point out that if you had been somewhat more forthright about your experience and ability, I would not have the statements you made about yourself to have used.  You seem to fit the mold of a fascist, in that you tend to attack and demean the opposition.
 
Furthemore, CLR/CZD, I could care less about how many binoculars whoever it was you worked for sells.  That is not the point.  The point is that you made the claim that you owned and used "ten's of thousands" of binoculars.  You said that, not me.  Selling an optic over the counter does not go into your brownie bank as "owning and using".  Looking through them inside the store doesn't qualify either.
 
Now I am with John Barsness in his above post.  It is now your turn.  Just who is wasting their money paying you to troll the optics threads bashing ZR binoculars?
Steve
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CLRobles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/09/2009 at 01:02
Originally posted by John Barsness John Barsness wrote:

JG,
 
On the other forums severalpeople soon came to the conclusion that C---- (whoever he goes by on each forum) is being paid to slam ZR's. If so, whoever is paying him is getting ripped off, because he doesn't present any real evidence, just goes on and on with lots of sentences ending in !

John the only one that came to that conclusion was you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hows that for some!!!!!!!!!! And the only one getting ripped off is the people who buy your articles that are written on a third grade levelRoll on Floor Laughing so people like JG Loco can understand them. And JB let me tell you something else.... You really go to far calling yourself a journalist. If you call writing short stories about payed for hunts and doing the deep investigation of covering new products at the SHOT shows then OK but I'm pretty sure were not going to see you writing AP pieces anytime soonWink And if you really think someone is paying me, well that just speaks of your journalistic intuition. 
You called me arrogant for challenging you! Well sir you are the arrogant one for thinking that every one has to agree with "THE GREAT JOHN BARSNESS"! I think you must really believe in the GOD worship that goes on around here for you WOW  Sorry pal I didn't sign up for that class!
Guess what John? I'm putting you on ignoreRoll on Floor Laughing
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CLRobles View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CLRobles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/09/2009 at 01:37
Originally posted by Klamath Klamath wrote:

I got the chance to meet the Zen Ray owner at the Northwest Sportsman's Show in Portland OR.  Since then, we communicate via e-mail several times a month.  When he began to contemplate the ED 2, I was asked to be part of a beta test group.  I accepted the offer, not because I envisioned jobs or $$$, but because I wanted to and I thought I would learn a lot in the process.  That is LEARN a lot, not EARN a lot, GOT THAT CLR/CZD?
 
The point is that you made the claim that you owned and used "ten's of thousands" of binoculars.
Ah yes, I love it when it starts to come into focusBig Smile And I love it when I'm right. It only took me several months here on these boards to start smelling something foulGoogle It  I came to these forums because it was a passion but soon got a bad taste from the driven campaign for ZR. I knew you and several others had a close relationship with ZR and that your opinions were obviously biased. You have even gone so far as to blame yourself when a ZR has failed.
Now You have post factually incorrect statements that anyone can verify. You say that I have boasted of using tens of thousands of bins and somehow think this discredits meBig Smile I earlier posted in this very thread the true quote and it can be check on campfireBig Smile You also say that I have bashed ZR... I ask you to post the thread were that has happened. Please do because that has never happened. What I have done is to challenge the likes of you, who obviously has a direct relationship with ZR, who would elevate these bins to higher status than they are.
What they are is a $400 bin with a very good view but do not have the build quality of Alphas or second tier binoculars. Now this is not a slam of ZR. But fact.... They are a $400 binocular. I'm quite sure there are many, many Zeiss B/GA users with 30 year old bins in their hands. These are bins that have a proven track record and a company that is well over 100 years old to back them. You do yourself and the hobby a disservice when you compare them to this level of quality and refuse to acknowledge their short comings. Now you can bash me all you want but in doing so you put yourself further out there for others to see this bias.  You should have been forthright and disclosed your relationship with ZR earlier so all who read your posts could have decided for themselves the level of bias. But you didn't do this and when someone (me) figures it out it doesn't taste good Steve! It feels like someone pushing something on the phone during diner time!
One last thing, one of the definitions of Fascist is "a person who is dictatorial or has extreme right-wing views".  If you find someone who questions whether someone else is being genuine in there actions because they have not disclosed pertanent information.... well then maybe I am?
 
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supertool73 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/09/2009 at 08:37
Can we get a mod to suspend his account, it is obvious what he is here to do.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/09/2009 at 09:44

Done.

Nothing wrong with debate and disagreeing with someone's opinions, but personal insults add nothing of value to discussions and are not tolerated here.

Ted


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JGRaider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/09/2009 at 10:19
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Done.

Nothing wrong with debate and disagreeing with someone's opinions, but personal insults add nothing of value to discussions and are not tolerated here.



I agree Rifle.  I don't have a problem with debate, but there's no need to bash people's character, especially an honest, knowledgeable, and professional guy like JB. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/09/2009 at 10:31
To be clear here, for the benefit of those who think like CLR that there is some sort of hero worship for John or that he gets preferential treatment... 
 
We live by the "Golden Rule" here.  Mr. Barsness is a contributing OT member in good standing and he should be afforded the same respect and courtesy as any other OT member in good standing; no more, no less. 
Ted


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tahqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/09/2009 at 10:32
It is very unfortunate that these trolls hide behind electrons to attack knowledgeable people, especially John and Steve. This is besides the fact that his argument lacked any merit do to a lack of experience with the Zens.
 
Doug
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Barsness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/09/2009 at 10:44
Gee, and I thought that writing for National Geographic was real journalism, even if they paid my expenses!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Klamath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/09/2009 at 13:32
Well, I'm gratified to see that Ted pulled the plug on CLRobles.  For my perspective, I thought he was sort of amusing with what he posted in regard to me.  I don't feel any particular vindication for myself in his banishment.  However, what he pulled in that wierd diatribe aimed at John Barsness was completely over the top and totally out of line.  My thought was, well he showed his colors there, and a couple of posts later ...BOOM.
Steve
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bitterroot Bulls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/09/2009 at 22:36

Well those were some wild posts.

I sure appreciate a medium like the Optics Talk forum, where a regular Joe like myself can interact with legitimate outdoor JOURNALISTS like John Barsness.  I have enjoyed John's articles in many publications ("Lucky Ewe" in the last Montana Outdoors was especially entertaining!) and plan on reading many more in the future.  Call me a Barsness fanboy.
 
I also appreciate Klamath's detailed and insightful reviews on Zen Ray products and others.  I think there is a big difference between establishing a relationship with a company because of their fine product and describing a product as "fine" because of your relationship with a company.
 
Personal insults don't add anything to an optics discussion.Stick Horse
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FrankD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/10/2009 at 13:25
If you gentlemen think this is bad you should read the thread that CLRobles started over on birdforum.....
 
Frank
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tahqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/10/2009 at 21:27
Thanks for the heads up, Frank. I will comment no more.

Doug

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Acenturian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/11/2009 at 04:03
WOW That was some interesting posts, or I should say entertaining posts.  I believe that in true forum fashion a person should be able to voice their "opinions" as long as no personal attacks come into play.
 
I have recieved over the years GREAT advice on this optics forum, in fact I have never had a purchase that I was disappointed in.  I have been given advice to products that I never even heard of in the "hunting" world because some companies don't advertise in those mediums. 
 
Is it possible for a $500 to be alpha? Well I guess that would require what someones opinion is on what is alpha? Are we talking performance is in the optics? Handling? Durability? Reputaion?  The list can go on and on. 
 
My own personal criteria is all of those things and with that being said, no nothing against ZR but after you have been around for 60 + years, and the products have stood the test of time then sure why not.
 
I have a pair of $500 binoculars (Not SR) and yeah they are darn close to my Alpha glass. I had another pair of $500 binoculars that were not even close. So sure, it is possible to make good glass with todays technology and maybe SR has done that (don't know never seen a pair). I think it is great if a company has raised the bar and offers great glass at an affordable price for those interested.
 
My only issue is the made in China, when I have mentioned it before I got comments similar to 'you'd have to live off the grid, or own any electronics'  as if those are valid arguments to someones personal feelings.  I have a problem with outsoucing, or American companies making their stuff "cheap over there" and turn around and sell it "over here" but that is just me.
 
I don't think Swarovski, Leica or Zeiss have anything to worry about. They have been around for years and will continue to be.  My Casio talks to the atomic clock every morning so it may keep better time then a Rolex still isn't a Rolex though Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JGRaider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/13/2009 at 10:16
I'm not ashamed to admit I learn things from everyone, which is why I visit the forums.  I seen no shame in having a lack of knowledge on a subject, or admitting or saying "I don't know", but some people cannot get it out of their mouths.  Keep up the good work fellas!.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pahuntnut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/14/2009 at 11:36
My only issue is the made in China, when I have mentioned it before I got comments similar to 'you'd have to live off the grid, or own any electronics'  as if those are valid arguments to someones personal feelings.  I have a problem with outsoucing, or American companies making their stuff "cheap over there" and turn around and sell it "over here" but that is just me.
I hear you, the problem is eveybody is playing games as to were something is made. parts a made in one spot assembled in another or 60% assembled in on place and on and on.
 
i have a problem with also, with American companies making thier stuff "cheap over there" and turn around and sell it "over here" for made in OVER HERE prices. A company make a widgit for $100 then moves the operation to overseas and guess what it sell for? $100
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