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257 weatherby mag

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RifleDude View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/22/2007 at 10:48

Guys, good start on possibly getting our shiny new firearms forum shut down!

 

The high-stepping magnum calibers have their purpose -- if the rifles they are chambered in are sufficiently accurate enough to take advantage of the flatter trajectory they offer.  They offer the ability to shoot heavier-for-caliber bullets faster for more energy to tackle larger game.  In all reality, often stuff looks really great on paper, but when you factor in the real-world, all the theory and paper ballistics don't mean a whole lot.  I would venture to say, having seen countless "fall only" shooters, basically your typical hunter, at the range, that the majority of shooters have neither the shooting skills nor the rifle to take advantage of the flatter trajectory the wundermags have to offer.  In addition, the situation calling for super flat trajectory in a typical hunting scenario happens way less often than those afflicted with magnumitis would have you believe.  In the "real world," if you have a rifle in a moderate chambering that isn't grossly out of proportion to the size game you're pursuing, you'll be just fine.  If you like magnums, and in certain situations, I do, and you shoot it well, by all means go for it.  It can offer greater flexibility.

 

As for the .257 Wby cartridge, it is a fine medium game cartridge offering a lot of versatility, but again, in the real world, it doesn't offer anything significant that the .25-06 won't do just as well, it just looks "better" on paper.  If chambered in a super accurate rifle, it can give you a little more "fudge factor" on distance shooting at pronghorn and the like.

 

As for the Wby MK V action, it has some good qualities about it, but like most actions, it also has some disadvantages as well.  I won't go into that topic again, but if you are interested in my observations, you can find them in a search.

 

On the "overbore" issue, the fact is, a huge amount of powder burned through a comparatively small bore diameter will cause faster throat erosion than a more moderate cartridge.  Whether or not that means much depends on how often and how fast you shoot the rifle, and what your accuracy expectations are.  Some rifles will still shoot o.k. by big game hunting standards despite extensive throat erosion.  In a competitive or varmint shooting application where accuracy standards are more critical, there is an entirely different standard for "accurate" barrel life, sometimes by a factor of 10.  I have first hand experience with "overbore capacity" (a rather subjective term) cartridges and barrel life, having done quite a bit of shooting with 6-.284s and .22-250s in PD shooting scenarios, where one can easily put 1500 rounds through a rifle in a single weekend.  I can tell you on several occasions, my buddies and I have completely shot out a barrel in these calibers in a single 3 month period.  This just means we now bring more rifles with us so we don't overly abuse any one rifle.

 

Good shooting!

 

 



Edited by RifleDude
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rootmanslim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/22/2007 at 11:11
Rifle Dude speaks the truth.Most hunters do not have the skillset to use a 257 WB any more effectivly in the hunting field than they would a 250-3000 and maybe less so due to the blast & roar.I'd also opine that most rifles built in that caliber are not really appropriate for the long range, deliberate shooting round it is.Something in the style of the old model 70 target rifle with a 28" bbl. would make a lot more sense for sniping Antelope at 300+ yards than an 8 pound sporter.(I know the sporter shoots well enough, it is just harder to shoot it as well)i.e the nut behind the bolt. All that said, the circmstances where a skilled hunter can not get within 200 yards of a big game animal are not common. Still, a real M70 Bull Gun rebbled to 257 WM with a 2" Unertl would be a fun toy!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/22/2007 at 13:07
dont rip me one for saying this, but in this forum how many of us are just fall shooters?? i guess i can't see that the whole your not skilled enough to handle a magnum pertains to alot of us in here posting messages!!, i was shooting 30-06 at age 9, of course i wouldnt have been able to hold a rifle steady for long off hand, but now as i have gotten older, i dont see how i am not prepared to us a magnum, as i currently use 4 of them for whitetail, sure i agree there is a lot of people out there who dont know which end the bullet comes out of but really guys you gotta admit there is a lot of people in here that have been and god willing continue in the future to shoot a ton all year!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dogger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/22/2007 at 13:22
Agree with your observations on the folks here Pyro.  The sad truth is however there are an awful lot of the guys around that Root was talking about.  On this forum we're largely preaching to the already converted.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/22/2007 at 14:10
Rifledude speaks the truth in a eloquent manner, root head has yet to learn, as well a DC.  His observations are rational and well thought out.  My tendency toward the Wby. calibers is because I like to shoot long distance and that extra energy at those distances is what really comes into play with respect to knock down power.  The ballistics I posted for root did not show up, they did on my computer at home, even after I went out of the site and came back on.  Regardless, comparing the energy of the 300 H&H at 500 yards with the 30-378 Wby., was like comparing a pinto to a Porsche.  For the shooting/hunting I like and root would call it sniping, I need that energy down stream.  Mass x velocity= momentum, which is relatively proportional to energy, at the velocities and energies we are speaking of.  As far as your 244 H&H, what altitude did you chrono that bullet and with what length barrel?  How many grains of powder did you load it with to achieve that velocity?  I will bet you, base on where you live, you are substantially above sea level, pulling a Lazeroni trick.  The other issue, which is far more important, what are the velocity measurements and energies down stream.  By the way, calibrate your chronograph.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/22/2007 at 16:09
Just for you DC.  I was doing some more reading.  One of things some people like to do.  An article, by David Petzal, oh, but I forgot, he is just some no nothing writer that does nothing but shoots rifles and shotguns all day.  From the 1/07 issue, "The Guns You Keep".  Of the nine rifles he mentioned, several customs I might add, two were Wby. calibers, a 340 and a 300 and two were Mark V rifles, one in the 300 Wby. an the other in a 7mm Remington Mag.  The later a custom made by Griffin & Howe, around a Mark V action.  Hmm.  Seems more people everyday like a Wby. and Wby. calibers.  Oh, but what do I know.  I read too much and David Petzal is some shmoe gunwriter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/22/2007 at 17:21

Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

dont rip me one for saying this, but in this forum how many of us are just fall shooters?? i guess i can't see that the whole your not skilled enough to handle a magnum pertains to alot of us in here posting messages!!, i was shooting 30-06 at age 9, of course i wouldnt have been able to hold a rifle steady for long off hand, but now as i have gotten older, i dont see how i am not prepared to us a magnum, as i currently use 4 of them for whitetail, sure i agree there is a lot of people out there who dont know which end the bullet comes out of but really guys you gotta admit there is a lot of people in here that have been and god willing continue in the future to shoot a ton all year!!!!

 

Don't misunderstand me here -- it's not just the shooting skills nor experience level involved.  A huge % of the out of the box factory rifles aren't capable of sufficient enough accuracy to really take advantage of the flatter trajectory the magnums offer.  I've worked on a bunch of 'em from all manufacturers. 

 

Magnums provide more energy, which is definitely an asset when using heavier bullets for larger animals, but as far as flat trajectory is concerned...at the point where the flatter trajectory really starts becoming a significant advantage, the average rifle's inherent lack of precision doesn't allow that advantage to be utilized to full potential.  Then, I've learned that even among very experienced shooters, without a rangefinder, many among us misjudge distance by as much as 50%, with most folks tending to overestimate distance.  Let's face it, even among the most seasoned of us shooters, most of us don't really need a huge-cased magnum for the majority of the hunting we do.  Of course, I'm somewhat speaking in generalities, as there are always exceptions.  If you're like me, you just like having many rifles in various chamberings because they're cool!!!  In the right hunting situations, I like magnum cartridges because they give me confidence in fully taking advantage of premium bullet performance on larger animals.

 

The issues with "overbore" and throat erosion are simply unavoidable fact.  It has nothing to do with a cartridge's power or energy, but simply burning a lot of powder and forcing hot gases through a relatively small hole.

 

As with most things in life, cartridge selection involves a series of tradeoffs.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/22/2007 at 20:26
i can agree with most of that, but i have never owned a rifle that hasnt been able to shoot 1moa or less @ 100yds with handloads that i have tuned in, i am going to agree with you on the fact that a new gun in a new chambering is very cool, i love to do research on the newest caliber that is tripping my trigger, right now its the .280 rem. the best way for me anyways to judge distance is to spend alot of time shooting at various distances to try to get relatively close on judgement with out a rangefinder. sometimes it works some times i am off like everyone else. practice practice practice!!! excellent post rifledude!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/23/2007 at 11:13
The most expensive guns I have are a set of Rizzini skeet guns at $250,000. Although Kreighoff are good work guns (to big and heavy) they are not in the same class. A slow year of shooting is about 50,000 rds, and heavy year is aboutl 150,000 rds. My biggest gun (guns) are a set of twin 40mm of which I have 2.54 mins. of rounds (can't shoot it very often it takes a special permit form the BLM). The cheapest gun I have is a Remington 788(not counting handguns) in .233 that outshoots most of my 4 digit dollar guns . Of course my uncle never shot every animal on earth, some are not worth the effort, it is as much bs as Dolophins posts. I consider weatherbys sub par to a remington have had several don't want anymore. My longest shooter (a true mag. is a 50 Barrett) but the funnest is a Sako trg .338 Lap. I have long range tactical comp. guns that put the cost of a weatherby in the Wal-mart group. (My IPSC guns make a weatherby look like a cheap buy). If you want a good long range gun get a Surgeon action send it off to them, Christensen arms, or Gap even. Ask those people about weatherby --or get a good action and put it in your favorite cart. Don't mind their snickers though as they take your money. As far reading goes-again-if you want to replace 2nd information with personal experience be my guest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trinidad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/23/2007 at 11:40

Very nice arsenal Dale, I have alreday read about all the great scopes you have owned and compared in the past,it is good to hear about some of your rifles.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/23/2007 at 12:03
Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

. Although The cheapest gun I have is a Remington 788(not counting handguns) in .233 that outshoots most of my 4 digit dollar guns . 
  oh my god i cant see you owning such a quote cheap action!!! i am shocked, you are correct about the 788 accuracy, i own one in a 22-250 and i know several people who own 788's and i dont know anyone who has one that shoots poorly, i think they quit making them because it made the 700 look silly when the rem ceo's got shown up by joe blow and his 788.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/23/2007 at 12:20
Tubular type one piece extruded, pressed or drilled actions like the 788, Steyrs current Tikka's usually work pretty good due to their size and stiffness-anyone remember the Nikkos? pyro- cheap doesn't necessarily mean bad or unservicable as on the over hand expensive mean good look at weatherbys.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/23/2007 at 12:28
i would asssume you are refering to the lazermark, not my favorite either. im not saying cheap is bad i love that 788 and it would be the last gun on the planet i would get rid of, peel it away from my cold dead fingers you know!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/23/2007 at 12:30

Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

The most expensive guns I have are a set of Rizzini skeet guns at $250,000. Although Kreighoff are good work guns (to big and heavy) they are not in the same class. A slow year of shooting is about 50,000 rds, and heavy year is aboutl 150,000 rds. My biggest gun (guns) are a set of twin 40mm of which I have 2.54 mins. of rounds (can't shoot it very often it takes a special permit form the BLM). The cheapest gun I have is a Remington 788(not counting handguns) in .233 that outshoots most of my 4 digit dollar guns . Of course my uncle never shot every animal on earth, some are not worth the effort, it is as much bs as Dolophins posts. I consider weatherbys sub par to a remington have had several don't want anymore. My longest shooter (a true mag. is a 50 Barrett) but the funnest is a Sako trg .338 Lap. I have long range tactical comp. guns that put the cost of a weatherby in the Wal-mart group. (My IPSC guns make a weatherby look like a cheap buy). If you want a good long range gun get a Surgeon action send it off to them, Christensen arms, or Gap even. Ask those people about weatherby --or get a good action and put it in your favorite cart. Don't mind their snickers though as they take your money. As far reading goes-again-if you want to replace 2nd information with personal experience be my guest.

Now we have the BS from the BS king of all kings.  I figured and bated you into this one.  I knew you would choose some Italian shot gun over the Kreighoff, just because you did not like Wbys.  Too heavy, bullsh t.  Proabably the finest shotgun made, regardless of price.  Which Rizzini company shotguns do you own.  There are several.  Please do us all a favor and post pictures with receipts for these 250000 dollar guns, because I really do not believe for a minute that you own them.  Secondly, as far as you dislike for Wby., you really do not know anything about what you are talking about.  I have supplied you with enough info. regarding people who own them and who know far more than you do and you still come up looking like an ignoramous.

 

"Just for you DC.  I was doing some more reading.  One of things some people like to do.  An article, by David Petzal, oh, but I forgot, he is just some no nothing writer that does nothing but shoots rifles and shotguns all day.  From the 1/07 issue, "The Guns You Keep".  Of the nine rifles he mentioned, several customs I might add, two were Wby. calibers, a 340 and a 300 and two were Mark V rifles, one in the 300 Wby. an the other in a 7mm Remington Mag.  The later a custom made by Griffin & Howe, around a Mark V action.  Hmm.  Seems more people everyday like a Wby. and Wby. calibers.  Oh, but what do I know.  I read too much and David Petzal is some shmoe gunwriter".  Read the article.  Oh, I forgot, you know more that he does.

 

So, from what you are saying, you would not lower yourself to a Savage (I own and love several), Ruger (I own and love several), Parker Hale (I own and love several), Tikka T3 (I own and love 1), Howa (I own and love several) etc.  Do you have a job, or do you shoot all day long?  Maybe somebody needs to check your headspace?

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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rootmanslim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/23/2007 at 14:06
I dont shoot @ big game @ 500 yards as I view that as irresponsible, thus a 30-378 is irrelevant. As to the 244 H&H the factory ballistics are a 100 gr bullet at 3600 fps. So.....
As to altitude I am at 7000' and the chrony is 15' away. This is not a (who knows how long, freebored) weatherby pressure bbl in an indoor range. Hate to say it but a 244 H&H holds more powder than a 240 WM, So...... (You seemed to understand why the 30-378 was faster than the 300 H&H).
In my opinion, it doesn't seem to sink in that what we are afield for is HUNTING. Shooting at game at extended ranges where no skill is involved other than reading the range finder and doping the wind is not HUNTING, it's target shooting at a live target. The endless bragging about such shooting encourages more and more to try it. Many are ill prepared and that equals more cripples and grist for the anti-hunters mill. Stalking, shooting up close and tracking skill are the three legs of hunting skill. The best gun hunters I know are also bow hunters. Why?, because to succeed with a bow you have to know how to hunt, not just pull a trigger. Take bird hunting, one can bait geese in and shoot them on the ground at 100 yards with a 10 bore or a rifle, right? Aside from the law why don't we? Because it's not hunting it's target shooting at live animals. Outside of varmints this obsession with killing game at long range reflects a sad direction for what has been an honorable sport. Skills will be lost and a new generation of hunters will come to view hunting as an extension of X Box gaming. Look around the web. There are even idiots bragging about killing game at 1500 yards with a 50 BMG cal rifle. Hunting my A--!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/23/2007 at 14:12
i went to a sight were they preach using match grade bullets to kill animals past 1000 yds, i read where a guy in utah killed an elk at 1203 yards with this specially built rifle, i thought well he had to do the calculations and figure out the elevation adjustment and he must have figured correctly with the leupold 6.5x20 he poked the cow in the head dropped right there,quite a shot but not ethical in my mind, but with that larger magnum it was possible to do cleanly, probably wouldnt try that with the ole 243 though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dogger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/23/2007 at 14:53
Agree with Root here.  When hunting game our intent should always be to get as close as we can (or let them come to us) to ensure good shot placement and a quick kill.  Think it's important to teach this to our young people just starting out.  I'm sure there is a place for the occasional long shot if you have the equipment & more important the capability but should not become the norm.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/23/2007 at 15:01
unless your varminting i cant really see much reason to shoot any game animal past 300yds i dont know if the rest of the forum would agree but to me thats far enough. i like them inside 50 if they go there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/23/2007 at 15:53
Well, I guess I will go back to my premise of why I started long range hunting.  The local laws dictate that you must be 8 feet off of the ground with a rifle.  Therefore, stalking any game is out of the question.  When I was a kid, these laws did not apply and thats the only type of hunting we did.  And yes, it was more fun and rewarding.  We even used to hunt quail without a dog, mainly because we did not have one trained, but there was nothing more fun than to raise a covey, without knowing it was going to happen and get scared out of your wits, pull yourself together and try to make the shot.  Those were the good old days here in eastern NC.  After the last few seasons of shooting deer out of a treestand at ranges of up to 200 yards, which takes virtually no skill, even with the most basic rifle and scope combination, I had to try something different.  As long as I was sniping deer, why not do it at ranges that take some skill, from the standpoint of shooting ability and some intellectual ability, i.e., sighting in your scope at the proper range, using a range finder and a ballistics calculator.  After a significant investment in the proper equipment and time at the range, I developed the skills that I thought were sufficient.  Only one deer at 500 yards this year, at one outing.  If anyone remembers, I wrecked my 72 Cheyene Supreme pickup and could not carry my quadpod with a customized platform for a rest and two tripods for a sighting scope and the range finder.  Had to tow it out there with a trailer.  Regardless, the 30-378 Wby. to the shoulder did the job, without the deer taking one step.  I was proud.  Could I do it again?  I would hope so.  Could it have been luck?  Maybe, but I doubt it.  The point is, now you see why I do that type of hunting.  I could go back to 200 yard sniping, but let me tell you, it does not even increase your pulse rate by 1 bpm when I see a deer at that distance, not even a trophy buck.  By the way, most bow hunters here, shoot out of stands.  I do not know any, that stalk their prey.  Two different areas of the country and different ways we have to hunt.  I would love to hear your comments on hunting with dogs, because that is very common here.  I have never done it, but they say it really gets your adrenaline flowing.
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