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270 for elk |
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RONK
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: April/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3199 |
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That would make for an interesting experiment, and I bet it would help a lot.
Part of the problem though, at least in theory, is the actual diameter of the grooved hole that is swaged into the tip of the bullet. It is just too small in diameter in the smaller calibers.
I agree with you that the faster they are driven, the better they expand, which is probably why Barnes recommends shooting lighter X-bullets than you are used to shooting in a given caliber.
Personally, I am beginning to lean toward the bonded polymer tipped offerings by other makers, for my tough bullet needs, but I haven't shot enough of them yet to favor one over the other.
I'm learning things here though...
Edited to add: I just now read Sakomato's link to the Accurate Reloading thread, and have to agree with those posters on that site who doubt the effectiveness of drilling out the tip, because the hole isn't intended to be round, but square or star-shaped, causing the "flower-petal" effect upon expansion. Edited by RONK - April/26/2008 at 14:04 |
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sakomato
Optics Master Joined: February/28/2008 Location: Houston Status: Offline Points: 1166 |
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There was also some concern about drilling out the hollow point sharpening the edges of the hole which could possibly cookie-cutter a patch of hide or bone and fill the hole. Also thinning the edges of the lip could lead to uneven bending or breaking off of the petals.
Wild speculation only. Perhaps the TTSX will solve the problem
Sometimes I wonder if the polymer tips are too pointed and should have a flat nose to help initiate expansion.
If I were going to work on the tip of a TSX I would cut off or sand off a few thousanths first and then bevel the hollow point in to a larger drilled hole. Sorta like this
Then you could sand off a little at a time to get the same weights.
Wish the Northfork hadn't gone away.
Edited by sakomato - April/26/2008 at 15:37 |
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Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians
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RONK
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: April/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3199 |
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The cookie-cutter theory never entered my mind. I tend to think that perhaps the back-pressure would prevent that. (Kind of like trying to blow air into an empty bottle with your mouth over the entire opening.)
Don't really know; wild speculation as you said.
Either way, reloading is enough work as it is that I personally have no great desire to re-manufacture all my bullets, too, except as an occasional experiment, perhaps.
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pyro6999
Optics Retard OT TITAN Joined: December/22/2006 Location: North Dakota Status: Offline Points: 22034 |
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i shot a pine tree with a ballistic tip once and i found was the green plastic tip and pieces of copper, so i have no doubt that the pointed tip does what its intended to do.
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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead" 343 we will never forget God Bless Chris Ledoux "good ride cowboy" |
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RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
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Having a larger frontal area does indeed reduce penetration, but so does reduced mass as the bullet sheds some of its jacket and core. So I don't know that I buy the Nosler info quoted from the American Rifleman article, especially since bullets like the X, Fail Safe, etc don't tend to shed their petals and yet testing generally shows they penetrate further in various media than any other bullet design. Greater retained mass = greater momentum = greater penetration, all else being equal. In addition, any bullet that is more frangible, even if only initially, should expand to a greater degree at first before the petals and portions of the front core break off, so at least at the beginning of penetration, they should have even greater frontal area than the high weight retention, controlled expansion bullets. Maybe at best the tradeoff is a wash in terms of penetration. I would personally rather have as little copper and lead fragments as possible scattered in the meat. On deer sized game, the Accubond seems to have just the right degree of expansion, and I've not had them break apart on me so far. I'm sure elk and similar sized animals would test their true weight retention capabilities, though.
Edited by RifleDude - April/26/2008 at 19:31 |
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Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
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pyro6999
Optics Retard OT TITAN Joined: December/22/2006 Location: North Dakota Status: Offline Points: 22034 |
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david fortier shot a nice bull in colorado with the accubond before they were released to the public a few years ago seemed to work on that hunt.
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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead" 343 we will never forget God Bless Chris Ledoux "good ride cowboy" |
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RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
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I'm sure they will work fine for the job, and if all I had was heavy-for-caliber Accubonds on an elk hunt, I wouldn't stay in camp, and would have confidence that everything would work out fine. However, I'd still rather have something a smidgeon tougher on elk just in case things don't work out as planned, but that's me, and I'm a huge fan of the Accubond as you well know. I'm admittedly basing my conclusions on what I've seen of the bullet's performance on deer and hogs, as I've not shot an elk with an Accubond. Edited by RifleDude - April/26/2008 at 19:40 |
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Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
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pyro6999
Optics Retard OT TITAN Joined: December/22/2006 Location: North Dakota Status: Offline Points: 22034 |
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he used a 180gr with the 300wsm i should go look at the article and get the specifics of it.
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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead" 343 we will never forget God Bless Chris Ledoux "good ride cowboy" |
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sakomato
Optics Master Joined: February/28/2008 Location: Houston Status: Offline Points: 1166 |
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Here's some charts from http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/methods.html
The anomalies of the Winchester Silver Tip a 1800 fps was probably because it didn't open up at the slower speeds just like the TBBC, Swift A-Frame and A Square Dead Tough on the custom bullet chart. The anomaly of the Fail Safe at 2800 fps and above is peculiar and may have been because of shedding petals at the higher speeds.
The thing to really note is the almost steady penetration of the premium bullets. All the other bullets have penetration that decreases with increased speed (sorta counter-intuitive huh?).
Edited by sakomato - April/26/2008 at 21:45 |
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Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians
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pyro6999
Optics Retard OT TITAN Joined: December/22/2006 Location: North Dakota Status: Offline Points: 22034 |
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i cant believe they show the ballistic tip doing better than the sierra gameking
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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead" 343 we will never forget God Bless Chris Ledoux "good ride cowboy" |
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RONK
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: April/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3199 |
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I don't see that at all. The Sierra is out-penetrating the Ballistic Tip (slightly) until velocities fall below 2500, and after that they are really too close to call based on one test.
Check out the penetration on the Fail-Safes, though. That is penetration!
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pyro6999
Optics Retard OT TITAN Joined: December/22/2006 Location: North Dakota Status: Offline Points: 22034 |
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those things are brutal, where can a guy get his hands on those??
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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead" 343 we will never forget God Bless Chris Ledoux "good ride cowboy" |
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RONK
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: April/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3199 |
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I haven't seen them lately, don't really know. |
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lucytuma
Optics Jedi Knight Joined: November/25/2007 Location: Wisconsin Status: Offline Points: 5389 |
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Real interesting charts, thanks. As far as failsafes go, I purchase 150ea. 300gr.-.375 off of -gunbroker- about a year ago. I still think you can find them there from time to time.
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"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." - Thomas Jefferson
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sakomato
Optics Master Joined: February/28/2008 Location: Houston Status: Offline Points: 1166 |
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Here is some more interesting stuff. If you can't see the bullets from the picture you can go here http://www.seahook.com/bestbullet.jpg and click on the chart and it will magnify You can see how the Fail Safes don't really expand much. Edited by sakomato - April/27/2008 at 14:38 |
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Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians
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RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
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I used to load Fail Safes all the time in my .300, but they are getting harder to find because Winchester is planning to replace the Fail Safe with their new XP3 bullet, probably because it's less expensive to manufacture. The Fail Safe has a steel liner in front of the rear core that increased manufacturing complexity. The idea behind the steel liner was to prevent deformation of the rear cavity to help insure max penetration. The front of the Fail Safe is much like a Barnes X. The data sakomato posted is the first I've seen that showed a significant difference in penetration between the FS and the X / TSX. All the other tests I've seen has shown those two bullets to be pretty much equivalent in the penetration department. The new XP3 is similar to the Barnes MRX bullet in design with the plastic tip added and the elimination of the steel cup in the rear.
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Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
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RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
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Good information, sakomato! Pretty much confirmed that the premium bullets outpenetrate conventional bullets and maximum penetration is the result of a combination of weight retention and not too much expanded frontal area. I like the consistent performance the A-Frame and TBBC showed, combining decent expansion for a good wound channel diameter, along with good penetration. The chart also demonstrated the counter-intuitive nature of impact velocity and penetration, where beyond a certain point around 2700/2800 fps or so, increasing velocity actually decreased penetration due to the resistance of larger frontal diameter -- except for the Barnes X and Fail Safe, which both maintained a small frontal diameter regardless of velocity. Edited by RifleDude - April/27/2008 at 13:42 |
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Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
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pyro6999
Optics Retard OT TITAN Joined: December/22/2006 Location: North Dakota Status: Offline Points: 22034 |
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i would like to try that new win bullet too, but where does one buy them??
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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead" 343 we will never forget God Bless Chris Ledoux "good ride cowboy" |
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cheaptrick
MODERATOR Joined: September/27/2004 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 20844 |
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I think I have some .30 cal. Fail Safes laying around.
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If at first you don't secede...try..try again.
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pyro6999
Optics Retard OT TITAN Joined: December/22/2006 Location: North Dakota Status: Offline Points: 22034 |
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no .30's in the house anymore for me, my old man has my .300win im a 7mm and 6.5mm guy for now
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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead" 343 we will never forget God Bless Chris Ledoux "good ride cowboy" |
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