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300 yd Range Report.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/31/2011 at 17:42
LRSMike View Drop Down
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I really don't know what to think of this yet, I seem to have jerked the trigger a lot today. This is a target I had set up at 300 yards, and fired 9 rounds at today. 

Same rounds grouped 1/2" @ 100.

Rifle - Remington M700 Sendero SF .300 win mag
Scope - Bushnell Elite 6500 2.5-16X50 Mil-Dot
Round - Barnes VORTX 165gr TTSX BT
Temp - 70 Deg F
Wind - 2 MPH S
Shooting off a bench, rifle in Stoney Point shooting bag.

Let me know what ya'll think. I might have a brake installed for it seems I anticipate the kick.






Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/31/2011 at 17:57
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Since you got both vertical and horizontal movement, might be breathing and trigger control.  And of course wind reading.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/31/2011 at 18:03
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I also shot it at 8X 10X 12 X and 16X just to see what the difference's were. I'm not used to shooting a variable power very much. Wished I had one of ya'll with me at the range. I did however zero it at 10X, 2" high@100. Where would you guys zero at, in power, if you were using the same scope?

I guess I forgot to add this, but I was trying to use holdover to get into the center of the target. Something just doesn't seem right with me, the rounds were supposed to have a 6 in drop@300, but I was holding the left line of the red circle, with my center cross-hairs just above the target itself. 

I'll be the first to admit I'm not the greatest shot, or the smartest when it comes to ballistics or how to make scope adjustments without losing original zero. I really wished I had a range buddy.


Edited by LRSMike - October/31/2011 at 18:16
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/31/2011 at 19:21
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I would say a combination of trigger, breathing and sight picture, just based upon your comments.  If wind played that much a role, it was a hellacious wind.  Hard to analyze from 500 miles away.   Check all your mount attachments, then work breathing, sight picture, trigger.   Get your breathing "down"... get the sight picture you want... close your eyes for a count of three... check sight picture... should be identical.  If that is OK, repeat to get your sight picture, dry fire, check sight picture.  Any change in sight picture will probably reveal your problem if there is no "mechanical" issue.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/31/2011 at 20:06
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X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ?

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Very good post Dan. I pretty much agree with all that........ Though I'm not exactly a world famous shot myself. Don't know how big the target is, but at 300 yards, I could see wind being that much of a factor....... But I live in SD, where the wind blows EVERY day.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/31/2011 at 20:14
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The target is 18" T 12" W.

The farthest two shots are right at 8" from each other. The one above the red right at the 9 on the target, and the furthest bottom right solo hole.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/31/2011 at 20:38
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Originally posted by trigger29 trigger29 wrote:

Very good post Dan. I pretty much agree with all that........ Though I'm not exactly a world famous shot myself. Don't know how big the target is, but at 300 yards, I could see wind being that much of a factor....... But I live in SD, where the wind blows EVERY day.

The "distance off center" I agree with, but the v/h variation would be a strange wind effect. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/31/2011 at 20:56
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Yeah I contribute that to trigger jerk, I can keep the same breathing pattern, I just anticipate the kick wayyyy too much. It's like I know I can handle the recoil (20 rounds alone today) but it makes me want to jerk.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/31/2011 at 21:05
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When I feel anticipation coming on, I unload the gun and do 20 or 30 dry practice trigger presses.  Do everything the same over and over in dry practice, make sure they are prefect.  Thats the best way to get over anticipation. 

Then once you get it down load up and try again.  I like to tell myself over and over as I slowly build trigger pressure, press, press, press, press, press, etc.  Until the trigger breaks.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/31/2011 at 21:29
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Thanks Supertool. I know its just the rifle, because I don't have the same issues with my pistol, or my M-4. But that is expected of a .300 win mag. I'll try that tip the next time I get out to the range.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/31/2011 at 21:41
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Hope it helps.  I fight that as well.  I shot some big guns when I was a kid and have had to fight a flinch ever since.  I have to think about it everytime I pull the trigger
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/31/2011 at 22:11
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All great thoughts so far.
 
Hey Mike, do you have a lot of experience with big caliber shooting? I know a few guys who have a problem with jerking the trigger and they went from largely shooting smaller rounds (223/243 etc) to shooting magnum type rounds. Hell one of them is a former grunt who openly admits he yanks on the trigger something fierce on his 300 WSM. Like you said, it's the anticipation of the kick to come.
 
I find it very helpful to "work your way up" the ladder so to speak in terms of calibers. I largley shot 223 to 270 as a kid growing up and have progessed up through the 30 caliber range and more recently into some magnum shooting. I know each person is different but i think that progression helped me a lot in taming the issue of recoil.
 
KB and ST are spot on with everything else said. There are so many little things that can take you from a 1/2 group to a 2 or 3 inch group and it's crazy how those small things (breathing, slight wind, trigger control etc) add up.
 
Good luck, let us know how things continue for you!


Edited by shooter07 - October/31/2011 at 22:12
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/31/2011 at 22:33
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You also might want to verify your reticle is not canted.  A canted reticle used for holdover can send your group off to one side, and make your drops a little bit off, but the group size is likely trigger control related, as stated before.
Sometimes brakes make flinches worse, with the increase in muzzle blast.  The dry fire drill ST mentioned is excellent advice.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/31/2011 at 22:44
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X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ?

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If recoil is an issue, a suppressor may be a better alternative. Muzzle brake type recoil reduction, with none of the noise. Though size may be an issue.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/01/2011 at 06:14
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In addition to all the above do you have a real good set of muffs for range shooting?  Good muffs in addition to an effective recoil pad (e.g. Limbsaver) can make a world of difference especially if proper breathing techniques are used.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/01/2011 at 08:43
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My first rifle at 12 was actually a Savage kit gun in 7mm mag. I have been so familiar with 223 since that's what the military shoots (my rank prevents having fun with the M240B). When we mounted my scope, a very good guy helped me mount it, and used a 2" level to ensure my scope was level. I also have a Limbsaver installed. I kept thinking about it last night, and I'm thinking I might of had the scope at a higher than needed power, and jerking the trigger. I'll just end up having to go back to the range, try those new techniques, and see how it goes. I appreciate all the responses gentleman.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/01/2011 at 09:12
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Having the scope at a higher power is not necessarily a bad thing.  It can be a great teaching tool.  Every movement you make will be magnified greatly so you can see your mistakes and movements in the scope.  On lower mags you may miss a lot of that

In your dry practice do it at the highest power your scope has that way you can see your movements better and learn from your mistakes.  Learn to call your shots, learn to pay attention to exactly where your reticle was on the target when the trigger breaks.  Then when you perfect that in dry practice you will also do it in live firing, so you will know exactly where your shots are before you ever see your target. 

If you really want to learn marksmanship, spend 90% of your time dry practicing.  Then the other 10% actually shooting.  It will amaze you the things you can see in your shooting without the boom and the recoil.  Also it will teach you great muscle memory and it allows you to focus on one thing at a time without the boom and recoil.  As you get your trigger control, sight picture, sight alignment and breathing perfected in dry practice, then you will just do it automatically in live firing.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/01/2011 at 09:23
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were you using front and rear bags or just front? also try it prone before you make to many changes. a little "butt sway)(tech therm) can make a alot of changes in your groups.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/01/2011 at 09:56
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Lots of good advice here.
Just looking at the target, I would say you may be milking the trigger (if your right handed). Instead of pressing straight back with your trigger finger, your curling your finger (and possibly the whole hand). This puts latteral preassure on the trigger and pulls the muzzle to the right and down.
Another issue may have been the sun, if you were shooting into the sun. The glare makes it difficult to maintain a consistant sight picture, as the sun lights up one side of the cross hairs but makes it difficult to determine where the other side ends. The range I shoot at faces south, so during the cooler months when the sun is in the south it is difficult to shoot at certain times of the day, because your shooting into the sun. I've noticed a point of impact shift as the sun moves across the sky, until its high enough in the sky that the glare is gone.
Just a couple of obsevations.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/01/2011 at 11:34
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BeltFed- The range here faces E, and I didn't notice any sun problems with the sunshade or location of the sun, but that's something great to keep in mind!

Brandon - Its just a front bag, but its about 12 inches long. Stoney Point. I do notice if I don't take the bi-pods off it sits practically in the middle just to the point that the bolt handle is just behind the bag. I'll get pictures up if you need to see what I'm trying if that'll make sense. I haven't shot off the bi-pods yet, because its hard to get comfy with the Harris 25S series in the prone. Maybe sitting would be a better option. I need two sets of bi-pods Smile

But with it on the bag I do see a lot of the teetering affect when I pull it into my shoulder tightly.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/01/2011 at 12:07
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try to shoot off 2 bags, it will let the rifle keep POI with no effort from you. When I shoot I try to take as much of ME out of the shot as I can. I do use a bi-pod and rear bag when shooting prone. 2 bags off the bench when testing loads and what not. I also just use the bi-pod while doing prone with no bag.
 
try that before you do anything else.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/01/2011 at 16:41
LRSMike View Drop Down
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What do you suggest for bags?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/01/2011 at 16:49
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Gunners gear is the bag I use, the big round one.  http://gunnersgear.com/bags.htm  You need a stock that is slanted so you can move it back and forth for elevation changes. It is not one you can really squeeze.  So a flat bottomed stock or one with the hook does not work very well.

Others like a bag that you can squeeze to get your elevation changes.  https://www.riflesonly.com/pro-shop/tactical-gear/tab-rear-bag.html

I am not a fan of squeezing as I feel when you relax right before you pull the trigger you have a tendency to relax your squeeze as well which will move your POA. 


Edited by supertool73 - November/01/2011 at 16:50
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/01/2011 at 16:56
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How much did that gunners gear one cost you? and by slanted your talking about a slant from the bottom of the butt stock to the grip?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/01/2011 at 17:05
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yup thats what I meant.  Some of the tactical stocks have flat bottoms or a cutout. 

Looks like they are $42 + shipping.  http://gunnersgear.com/ordering_files/GG_Order_Form.pdf

If you wanna go real cheap.  Get 3 or 4 socks, fill one with beans or rice, then sew it up and put 2 or 3 more socks around it and sew the last one up. 


Edited by supertool73 - November/01/2011 at 17:06
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