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.338 Hornady 285gr ELD-M?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/03/2016 at 18:41
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X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ?

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Anybody else running these? I picked a box up today for some testing. At first they seemed pretty consistent. Overall length was good. Base to ogive measurement seemed pretty good. But then I started weighing them. Shocked  From lightest to heaviest they vary by 1.1 grains!  I haven't been doing much loading for .338s lately, so I grabbed a box of 300gr Berger hybrids. They all weighed from 299.7-300.2, so a little better. Still not great. A box of 265gr Barnes LRX varied 1.4gr from lightest to heaviest.   I guess this is about as good as it gets for .338 bullets?



Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/03/2016 at 18:47
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Have you tried the Lapua 300 or 250's?


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/03/2016 at 18:58
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X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ?

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I have some 300s. I'm not really in the market for bullets. I won't be buying anymore bullets except for test purposes. Maybe I'll weigh up some Scenars and see how they are. I was just shocked that for "match" bullets they vary by more than a grain. I weighed a box of Badlands Precision 270gr Super Bulldozers, and they weighed 269.9-270.1. :)
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/03/2016 at 18:59
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Originally posted by trigger29 trigger29 wrote:

Anybody else running these? I picked a box up today for some testing. At first they seemed pretty consistent. Overall length was good. Base to ogive measurement seemed pretty good. But then I started weighing them. Shocked  From lightest to heaviest they vary by 1.1 grains!  I haven't been doing much loading for .338s lately, so I grabbed a box of 300gr Berger hybrids. They all weighed from 299.7-300.2, so a little better. Still not great. A box of 265gr Barnes LRX varied 1.4gr from lightest to heaviest.   I guess this is about as good as it gets for .338 bullets?




We are counting on you to set the standard...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/03/2016 at 19:37
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Apparently...... I was a little disappointed in the consistency I was able to attain. I kinda feel like a rockstar now!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/04/2016 at 15:15
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X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ?

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Well I weighed a box of 300gr Lapua Scenars. 99 of them weighed between 299.8 and 300.2 with 1 falling out at 299.7. Pretty good. But more importantly I feel better about only being able to hold .2 gr weight tolerance now. Looks like that's all the better the best in the business can do.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/04/2016 at 19:37
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I have gone through 5000 300gr scenars in a day that was spent watching my son breath and watching his heart rhythms waiting and administering caffeine to him.

I sorted 21 that deviated more than .3 and 27 that were .2 off to .3 off. I was pretty floored at the consistency. 44 were off .2 to .175. The rest were .174 to 0 it only took a 14.5 hours to sort.

The question is can anyone shoot .4 or less than 1% of .1MRAD consistently?

Can you drop powder, seat and land off the grooves with that much consistency. Even if you make a perfect weighted bullet can you pull off the rest of the equation of the reload and then the shot?

I would argue environmental conditions change more than the 300.2 to 299.9 does.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/04/2016 at 19:42
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I don't know if this is a joke or not but I was told all the crap gets shipped out of the country. Meaning Nordic or Finland gets the 300.00 and we get the junk this could have been related to loaded ammo. I never clarified it was hard enough talking to him. He joked and said that when we get to heaven everyone will speak Finnish because it takes that Long to learn it.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/04/2016 at 20:08
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X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ?

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I guess I can't say whether anyone could shoot the difference. I just know I want to put out the best product that I can. So of somehow something happens and one of my bullets isn't within .2gr, it becomes a test bullet. Because it won't get shipped. Now, I've found it much easier o hold tight weight tolerances on small bullets than on larger calibers. For instance the .243's are pretty easy to hold ±.1 gr. But the .338s sometimes one falls out. So I adjusted the tolerance on those to ±.2gr. now I shoot for ±.1 and if one falls out I can make an adjustment, and I don't have to scrap them.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/05/2016 at 09:22
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Where is the difference in weight might be more interesting to find out. Is it out of concentricity? Is it length? Is it tip? Is it tail? Is it ogive? Is it body? Does it matter?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/05/2016 at 09:44
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Those are great questions and of prime importance to the overall question.  
One of the reasons I love the OT forum.  So much useful information from people who HAVE to have the accurate answers.  

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What do bullet companies do to keep the copper from hardening over time on the shelf? I have seen pressures shoot up on some ammo aver time on the shelf. So just curious.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/05/2016 at 11:55
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Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

Those are great questions and of prime importance to the overall question.  
One of the reasons I love the OT forum.  So much useful information from people who HAVE to have the accurate answers.


Ditto!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/05/2016 at 12:59
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Jason, weight by itself is not that big a deal.  On a bullet that heavy it probably makes minimal difference if any.

Ultimately, if you really want to see whether that makes a difference, you need to approach from a statistical standpoint.

Figure out what the standard deviation of your process is (sigma).

Then make several batches of bullets covering some multiple of that process standard deviation.  +/-3*sigma is common, but you can use something else you are so inclined.

Starting with the outlier batches, measure BC and stability and see how they compare to your target weight.

This is not specifically my field, but I suspect you will find that the difference is much less than you think.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/05/2016 at 15:55
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Interesting topic. And just a thought, but if the outer dimensions are correct then my thought would be just how consistent is the density of the material used to manufacture the bullet?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/05/2016 at 18:28
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I think what I'm finding is the difference is in the hollow point, and it really boils down to tolerance stack up. There are a lot of things going on in these bullets. It takes 3 tools JUST TO MAKE THE HOLLOW POINT. So if you take the bullet as a whole, and all the tolerances involved, including all 5 tools, holding weight tolerance really is the hardest part. Every dimension must be blueprint. For example. I hold ± .0001" tolerance on my bullet's OD. Now on the center drill, and drill, and broach that make the hollow point, if I hold ± .001" on the depth, and .001" overall length, you add all those up, and you could get a .2 gr weight difference. So, if I ran a bullet .0001" small OD and with all the hollow point tools .001" short on depth, and .001" short, it may be .2gr light. Now if I ran maximum material condition, instead of minimum material condition, it may be .2 gr. heavy. Now, if I get a few chips that build up on the drill bit, and cause it to deflect very slightly, and cut the hole a couple ten-thousandths oversized, I lose another .1 gr. This is why I think sometimes when I'm holding .1gr, why I have one occasionally fall out.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/05/2016 at 21:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/06/2016 at 05:50
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Originally posted by 338LAPUASLAP 338LAPUASLAP wrote:

Off topic a little but Interesting read http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/Articles/ABDOC116_2_300_338_Rev1.pdf


Good to click on and read all the supporting documents, as well.  Great stuff.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/17/2016 at 06:34
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Jason worries too much. The 338 line is shaping up to be really superb. The BC on the 240BD is 0.70, beating the Berger 250 advertised BC.  He has a 254 ICBM we tested for a BC of 0.766 and a 225 BD where we measured a BC of 0.63, and that may improve because he made a slightly longer tip for it. All these bullets are stable out of a 1:10 twist barrel. Our BC testing methods seem to measure lower BC's than those claimed by commercial  manufacturers including Berger. A +- 0.2 gr error in 200 grains is only a 0.1% variation. I'll bet Hornady's weight standards included with their scales vary by more than that.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/22/2016 at 10:38
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Originally posted by Bigdaddy0381 Bigdaddy0381 wrote:

What do bullet companies do to keep the copper from hardening over time on the shelf?


Do you guys do anything to prevent this?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/30/2016 at 01:29
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X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ?

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We use full hard copper. It's as hard as it gets. Most bullet companies use gilding metal jackets that are harder than straight copper, so being too hard isn't an issue for us
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/07/2016 at 06:18
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Originally posted by trigger29 trigger29 wrote:

We use full hard copper. It's as hard as it gets. Most bullet companies use gilding metal jackets that are harder than straight copper, so being too hard isn't an issue for us


What have you done to test this.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/07/2016 at 06:50
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I'm about to be labeled a heretic but here goes! Read The Perverse nature of standard deviation by Denton Bramwell. It's a short piece but packs volumes of info into laymen's terms or if you're a glutton for punishment, read Fundamentals of Quality Control and Improvement by Amitava Mitra. He is a professor at Auburn but I don't hold that against him. I have a copy of the Third Edition if you'd like to barrow it.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/07/2016 at 11:07
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X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ?

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Originally posted by Bigdaddy0381 Bigdaddy0381 wrote:

Originally posted by trigger29 trigger29 wrote:

We use full hard copper. It's as hard as it gets. Most bullet companies use gilding metal jackets that are harder than straight copper, so being too hard isn't an issue for us


What have you done to test this.
I have the mill test reports from the copper showing hardness. Copper in essence will only get so hard. Copper work hardens so the process used to roll our bar stock into rods hardens it. Annealing would be done through heat. Since our bullets are cut under high pressure coolant, we don't heat them enough to anneal them any. They are as hard as they're going to get. Though still not as hard as most gilding metal jackets.
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