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SouthernWoodworking
Optics GrassHopper Joined: January/24/2015 Status: Offline Points: 24 |
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Oh yea! A lot of help on here by people who know WAYYY more then me. I totally agree with you on the "buy once, cry once" mentality. I have other scopes that I could put on this gun. Right now, I can only spend a MAX of $400 on scope and that wont change for the next 6 months.
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SouthernWoodworking
Optics GrassHopper Joined: January/24/2015 Status: Offline Points: 24 |
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So really, the bare minimum I could spend would be about $550 to 600? Or would $500 work?
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koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13181 |
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You operational envelope is not all that challenging if you have gear that is well made.
Trying to find a scope with a lot of bells and whistles for $400 is asking for trouble. What you need is a fairly basic hunting scope with a reticle that will support low light operation and, potentially, holdover shooting out to 700 yards. The Primary Arms scope is well conceived, but not well executed. It is not PA's fault. Chinese factory can not yet make products like this at the $300-$400 price point consistently. Sometimes you get a good one, but most people who buy these shop on price point and never use the all of the features of the scope. If I were I would be looking at something along these lines: Later, you can get a custom elevation turret for this scope that will work for your load (Nikon's Spot-On turrets). That gets you your mildot reticle, so until you get the turret you can learn to holdover with the reticle. Another option would be to forget the whole mildot business for the time being and go for something like this: Illuminated reticle helps in low light and for your plinking at 700 yards, the reticle will help. Another option within your budget is one of Hi-Lux/Leatherwood Uni-Dial scopes: Their quality control is about as good as you will get out of China. Uni-dial scopes are not as polished as I would like, but they work. Lastly, you can try this: It is definitely not Leupold's best scope, but it works as long as you let the turrets settle. ILya
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notorious
Optics GrassHopper Joined: January/25/2015 Location: B.F.E. Status: Offline Points: 27 |
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My go-to budget scopes are Redfields.
They do not offer mil-dot, but the Battlezone line has a nifty MOA reticle that works well okay ranging. Tracks well and a side-by side comparison with a Vortex Viper's glass the Revenge was much better. I have a 6-18x Varmint reticle on an AR-15 16" bull, and a 6-18 Battlezone MOA Tac on an AR-10 20" SASS.(for now). I use them for shooting targets out to 1000. As for durability and hunting I can give you no hard information. The high powered scopes can be found for 225-230. Another website had a sale on the 3-9 quick-dial for $115! |
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DCAMM94
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: April/19/2008 Location: Fort Worth Status: Offline Points: 3491 |
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Man if you're going to spend 600, get the swfa ss 3-9x. It's absolutely great for what you want, ffp, mil/mil and the glass is great.
Guess what guys, we almost doubled his budget in less than a day! Welcome to the OT, my friend. Get used to it! |
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Although personally I am quite content with existing explosives, I feel we must not stand in the path of improvement. -Winston Churchill
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MikieG
Optics Apprentice Joined: December/10/2014 Location: Oklahoma Status: Offline Points: 187 |
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I purchased my first SS scope in 97. I have since bought 4 10x42M scopes. They have been on everything from 10/22 to .300WM rifles and everything in between.
I have been at rifle schools in heat that keeps your rifle barrel too hot to touch ALL day. These schools have seen scope failures form pretty much every mfg. There have been loads of 10x SS scopes used there 1000yd kdr. Never a single SS scope failure. Today i am upgrading every one of them to the 5-20x SS scopes. As i do this, i am mounting the retired 10xSS scopes onto Beeman R1 Supermagnum air rifles. Air rifles you laugh? Yup. These rifles are known for digesting and crapping out the very best scopes in around 5 shot cycles. NOT the SS. These scopes are braced for both recoils. And to put icing on the cake, they focus down to 10 meters. Very impressive value in the $300 arena. If the 10x42M had mil/mil turrets when i bought them, i doubt i could justify the refit. |
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SouthernWoodworking
Optics GrassHopper Joined: January/24/2015 Status: Offline Points: 24 |
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I mean, I dont plan on spending $600, just wondering what yall think the bare minimum is for a good scope. |
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SouthernWoodworking
Optics GrassHopper Joined: January/24/2015 Status: Offline Points: 24 |
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Have you used the PA scope? What did you think? Sorry if this is stupid, but can you change the moa turrets on the Nikon to Mil scale? I like the Hi Lux price but I dont like the Moa turrets. Would rather not have to do multiple conversions |
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cheaptrick
MODERATOR Joined: September/27/2004 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 20844 |
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Primary Arms is most noted for their "just like an Aimpoint red dot" in some internet sectors.
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If at first you don't secede...try..try again.
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SouthernWoodworking
Optics GrassHopper Joined: January/24/2015 Status: Offline Points: 24 |
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cheaptrick
MODERATOR Joined: September/27/2004 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 20844 |
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Only for those that don't know the difference....
Welcome to Optics Talk, BTW.
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If at first you don't secede...try..try again.
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MikieG
Optics Apprentice Joined: December/10/2014 Location: Oklahoma Status: Offline Points: 187 |
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The idea of bare minimum is interesting. I have seen the Bushnell mildot scopes that sell for around $200 on Barrett M82A1 rifles. I have also seen Leupold MK4 clones on R700 custom shop rifles. In both cases the optics did their jobs very well.
But for me the 10x42M SS has been a great optic. $299 for rear focus and $350 for side focus. Not to mention they come with mil turrets and the new reticle that has 10 mils below the x hair. That scope has 900 yards of hold over in the reticle alone for 168gr 308!!!! I used to mount the scopes in a big vise and view a grid board exactly 100 yards down range. Then i would spend 5 minutes dialing around the grid checking the accuracy of the turrets. The very first tine i did this exercise on a brand new 10xSS i found 10moa moved the reticle 10.5 inches. Thinking that aint right, i dialed all around. Every time the scope returned exactly to zero. So i called SWFA. They said that their turrets were perfectly calibrated for MOA. When i insisted this brand new scope moved 10.5" after dialing 10moa, there was silence on the phone. Then the SWFA rep informed me an MOA is 1.047 inches. Ten MOA is actually 10.47 inches. I knew this. Except for 15 years i got so used to using the quick one moa equals 1 inch, i had forgotten 1 moa is actually 1.047 inches. I felt so stupid. So i decided to check all my 10x SS scopes. Every one of my 5 scopes were dead on the money. Right from the oldest one that was 15 years old to the brand new one. They all were EXACTLY dead on. The mil reticles are always perfect mils. The turrets repeat with exact movement. The glass is damned good. What more can a guy want for well under $400? When i went to my very first sniper school, i showed up with my 10xSS. After seeing all the badass optics on the line, ones costing more than i paid for the truck that carried me there, i felt that maybe my 10x would not be up to the task of 1000 yard shooting. 9 schools later, i have seen failures from optics that shocked the crap outta me! NEVER saw a failed SS. That school only shoots out to 1000 plus a few yards. There never was a shot that i couldnt make with absolute confidence and authority. This year i am going to Accuracy 1st in Texas. In that school they have the students shooting a 16" target at 1 mile. So for this i am refitting my rifles to the 5-20x SS. Plus i want illumination something not offered in the 10x42M line. So the minimum in my case has served me extremely well for 18 years and counting. I once read about reviewer that used the 10xSS to drive nails and the scope still worked! |
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cheaptrick
MODERATOR Joined: September/27/2004 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 20844 |
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I feel like I stole my rear focus SS 10x. It's ridiculous. Probably the best value I've ever made in gun related purchases.
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If at first you don't secede...try..try again.
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koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13181 |
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Yes, I have played with it a little, but not too extensively. I did not think it was worth any more of my time after spending a little effort on it. MOA turrets can not be easily changed to mrad. Look, you are trying to get a lot while being on a comparatively strict budget. There is a very basic rule of buying riflescopes: if you are on a budget, focus on fundamentals and compromise on features. The fundamentals are: the scope must hold zero and you must be able to see both your target and the reticle in a variety of lighting conditions. If you want a mil/mil variable scopes with FFP reticle, save your money until you can get the SS 3-9x42. If you really want a mil/mil scope under $400, I suggest you give up the variable magnification and get the SS 6x42 with mrad turrets and a Mil-quad reticle: It will do everything you want in any lighting condition you want. It may not look sexy, but it is dead nuts reliable. If you want the turrets to track every time, your options in the sub$400 price range are extremely limited. There is a great variety of inexpensive scopes out there that claim every feature known to man. They all look great until you go shooting and the glass is foggy, the zero shifts and the turrets do not track. Anyhow, if you insist on a mrad reticle, mrad turrets (with some expectation of decent tracking) and variable magnification, the Leupold Mark AR Mod 1 I linked above is more or less it. P5 turrets have decent feel and 0.1 mrad clicks. All that having been said, for any sort of distance shooting, I would take the fixed power 6x42 SS over the Mark 1 Leupold any day. ILya
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DCAMM94
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: April/19/2008 Location: Fort Worth Status: Offline Points: 3491 |
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In the words of James Carville in Old School: "We have no response. That was perfect."
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Although personally I am quite content with existing explosives, I feel we must not stand in the path of improvement. -Winston Churchill
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cheaptrick
MODERATOR Joined: September/27/2004 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 20844 |
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Thank you!
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If at first you don't secede...try..try again.
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SouthernWoodworking
Optics GrassHopper Joined: January/24/2015 Status: Offline Points: 24 |
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Wow Koshkin, I now know why they look to you!
Right now, Im deciding between the Ar MOD 1 and the Nikon. I like the 10 power on the Nikon (the more the better) and like their scopes but, the MOA turrets are pushing me away. I guess I could just make a dope chart and it wouldnt matter. I love the price on Ar MOD 1 and like Leupold's warranty (Nikon is good too!). I would rather have more magnification but beggars cant be choosers. How far is x9 good for? How far can you see bullet holes? I would go for a fixed power scope but, I just have to have variable zoom for hunting. Thanks for all the help!
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DCAMM94
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: April/19/2008 Location: Fort Worth Status: Offline Points: 3491 |
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SW,
To me, glass quality is as important as magnification. my conquest 4.5-14 gives me more clarity at 100yds than my Vortex Viper at the same distance, and the viper is a 16x. My SS 3-9x42 is almost as good as the vortex as well, and almost half of the magnification. When the guys on here talk about glass quality being more important, these are the types of real-world examples we are trying to relate. I still say that if you like the 10x magnification, and you're wanting to shoot distance, go with the 10x42 SS. It checks every box you want checked except variable/FFP. |
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Although personally I am quite content with existing explosives, I feel we must not stand in the path of improvement. -Winston Churchill
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SouthernWoodworking
Optics GrassHopper Joined: January/24/2015 Status: Offline Points: 24 |
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I all honesty, I dont really care about FFP if it got me variable. The fixed power just limits me to much.
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SouthernWoodworking
Optics GrassHopper Joined: January/24/2015 Status: Offline Points: 24 |
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Ok, so Im gonna order the PA 4-14 FFP and I have a buddy who will buy it from me if I dont like it.
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