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6mm Rem AI vs 243 vs 6mmX284 |
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8shots
Optics Jedi Knight Lord Of The Flies Joined: March/14/2007 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 6253 |
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Posted: September/03/2011 at 13:57 |
I spent a bit of time at our local gunshop today discussing caliber change:
The story is this: I want to use my existing chassis: 308Win Rem 700 action with Varminter stock.
Everything has already been tuned up, so I just want to swop barrels.
We looked at the 260 Rem (6,5mm Caliber), the 6mm Rem and the 6mm Rem AI.
I found a gunsmith who specializes in the 6mmRem AI. Says he gets 3900ft per second with 80gr SMK.
I think I will go this route.
He cuts from a Krige barrel blank.
Any comments or thoughts will be appreciated.
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billyburl2
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: January/08/2009 Location: Cottonwood, AZ Status: Offline Points: 4015 |
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That sounds like a winner for the comp circuit...Until the lands run out the muzzle! I don't really know what is available in your market, but here in the states, 6mm rem brass is both rare and spendy when compared to the .243 win. Also, to get the most out of a barrel that is chambered for something as over-bore as that, I would look into 105gr. or heavier bullets.
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If it is tourist season, why can't we shoot them?
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SVT_Tactical
MODERATOR Chief Sackscratch Joined: December/17/2009 Location: NorthCackalacky Status: Offline Points: 31233 |
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260 is suppose to have great barrel life and good bullet selection
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Dale Clifford
Optics Jedi Knight Joined: July/04/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5087 |
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Thinkin 3900 is a bit high. but maybe. I can only get 3600 fps out of 58 gr vmax in my 6mm. IN any case the barrel might go to 1200 rds. As bb suggested 105 , tight twist, would be better way to go. the bc on bullets below 100gr drops of fast.
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anomad
Optics Apprentice Joined: May/23/2011 Location: Salt Lake City Status: Offline Points: 148 |
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I don't have any first hand experience with those calibers. But I do like reading about their attributes.
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek042.html |
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tjtjwdad
Optics Journeyman Joined: December/11/2007 Status: Offline Points: 365 |
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What is its intended purpose (varmints, paper or deer size game)?
-A 6mm Remington & 243 Winchester will work in S/A. Not familiar with 6x284 but a 6.5x284 has a reputation as a barrel burner (depnding on ones accuracy requirements). Barrel life is something that isn't always easy to get your arms around, a lot of factors involved from case-to-case.
-I've heard/read that Improved cartridges don't always function well in a repeater. Don't have any experiences myself. So, FWIW...
-I can get 3400-3500 with a 75 out of my 6mm Remington. Unless the altitude is very high or other better than favorable conditions, I'd say to get 3900 out of a 80gr is a tall order, even if it is a AI. I wasn't aware Sierra made a 6mm 80 SMK bullet. I know they make a 107 gr and I believe a 70 and a 95 SMK too.
-The 6mm caliber is one of those calibers that you need to consider what the rifle is for because the twist rates of the barrels can go from 1-7 up to 1-14. Heavy bullets don't shoot well, if at all, in slow twist barrels. Light bullets don't always shoot their best in fast twist barrels and when driven too fast, they may come apart.
-As fas as brass, the 6mm Remington is limited to Winchester & Remington. I believe Norma and RWS makes 7x57 brass that can be necked down. I've never had a problem finding 6mm Brass, I'm constantly seeing it a Sportsmans Warehouse and Cabelas. It's also regularly available at Midway when ever I've looked. With the 6mm Remington AI version, you'll have to fire form. 260 Remington brass is available from Lapua & Remington for sure. Not sure if Norma, Nosler or Winchester makes it yet, if at all.
In the target world, the 6mm Remington and 260 Remington are pretty equal. The 260 would probably have better barrel life because of the "over bore" of the other two cartridges. For varmints I'd probably go with the 6mm Remington but for dual purpose varmints & deer the 260 might be a better fit, especially for deer size and above.
Nothing wrong with Krieger barrels but there are many other good ones out there.
HTH
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Rancid Coolaid
MODERATOR Joined: January/19/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9318 |
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3900 FPS = plasma torch to the throat. To some, it matters; to others, not so much..
I am a big fan of the 6.5s. I like the 260 so much I am having another built, shoots flat, great bullet selection, works with all things 308-based. 7mm-08 is another option. |
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tjtjwdad
Optics Journeyman Joined: December/11/2007 Status: Offline Points: 365 |
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8shots
Optics Jedi Knight Lord Of The Flies Joined: March/14/2007 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 6253 |
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The intention is for paper targets and 8 inch steel gongs.
We compete in the Formula 1 event of rifle shooting. Throw money at it and your chances of being in the top 10 is good. barrel life or concern about it is like saying to Schumaker, just take it easy, we only have one set of tyres for you.
We shoot at unknown distances. Get it wrong by 25 yds on a 308 Win 155gr Palma and you can go home.
Even 40 yds wrong on a bullet doing 3600 ft out to 350 yds is nothing. You still walk home with a hit.
The top dogs are all shooting 243 AI, 6mm, 6mm Rem AI, 6,5 x 284.
So I want to go top dog. Fastest bullet and caliber combo. Like lightning, like a laser, like the speed of light...
I realise barrel twist is going to be an important decision.
Thanks for all the input. It has helped me in my decisions.
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Bigdaddy0381
MODERATOR Georgia peach Joined: February/27/2007 Location: Georgia Status: Offline Points: 13680 |
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260 all the way. its not a sppedster round but great round for all around use. the 6.5x284 is a great round also. I don't think you can go wrong with ether
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tjtjwdad
Optics Journeyman Joined: December/11/2007 Status: Offline Points: 365 |
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You won't go wrong with a 6mm Remington either. However, and as a reminder, the top quality brass makers (Nosler, Lapua, Norma, RWS) don't make 6mm Remington brass. Also, if you can use the 115gr Tubbs bullet, that just makes it even better.
Go to JBM ballistics, plug in the data for all the different cartridges and see what pops up. The 6mm Remington (A/I & STD), 243 Winchester (A/I & STD), 6.5 x284 and the 260 Remington are all pretty close.
FWIW, there are some other cartridges that may interest you;
-6CM
-6 Super LR
-6.5 Super LR
I'm getting ready to have a 6mm Remington barrel put on my 40-x. I stuck with the 6mm Remington because I already have the Redding Competition dies, case gages (and so on) so it isn't cost effetive for me to switch cartridges unless there is a significant difference.
If you're just starting out and don't have any of the gear, check the merits of each one and then decide.
As far as barrel life, that is subjective to many things including one's accuracy requirements. I always feel compelled to mention it so someone won't be disappointed when their barrel is gone in short order.
HTH Edited by tjtjwdad - September/08/2011 at 23:39 |
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tjtjwdad
Optics Journeyman Joined: December/11/2007 Status: Offline Points: 365 |
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One other thing to add is the 7mm bullets. You may have to deal with more recoil depending on the cartridge but 7mm bullets have some of the highest BC's out there. I know you didn't mention these in the OP but I thought I'd just throw the info out there.
When you choose your barrel make sure you get a good quality one and most important, a good gun smith to install it.
Edited by tjtjwdad - September/08/2011 at 23:37 |
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8shots
Optics Jedi Knight Lord Of The Flies Joined: March/14/2007 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 6253 |
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Please clarify the 260mm Rem.
Everybody recommends I go to the 260 Rem, but the ballistics only offer 2900 ft per second???
How will that help me better my current trajectory of my 308 at 2850 ft per second???
Or compete with the Rem AI at 3700 ft per sec ???
At a shoot this week end a top shooter suggested the same to me...that I go for the 260 Rem because of high BC.
But at 2900 ft per second I get that from my current rig.
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tahqua
MODERATOR Have You Driven A Ford Lately? Joined: March/27/2006 Location: Michigan, USA Status: Offline Points: 9042 |
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Here is a lengthy article on the .260. I use one for hunting and like it more than my .30 cal rifles. The bullets have high BC's and SD's and the recoil is low.
http://demigodllc.com/articles/the-case-for-260-remington/?p=1 |
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Doug
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little cleo
Optics Apprentice Joined: March/23/2010 Status: Offline Points: 140 |
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I can't see the need at all for the .260 myself either. Its in between two great claibers the 25-06 and the .270 Win which are both hands down better all around???????
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billyburl2
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: January/08/2009 Location: Cottonwood, AZ Status: Offline Points: 4015 |
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Until you get past 500 yards...Then the 260 smokes them both. And does it in a short-action rifle, with less recoil and less powder burned...
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If it is tourist season, why can't we shoot them?
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8shots
Optics Jedi Knight Lord Of The Flies Joined: March/14/2007 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 6253 |
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Thanks Doug for a good read.
All this info is being carefully looked at.
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tjtjwdad
Optics Journeyman Joined: December/11/2007 Status: Offline Points: 365 |
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If you don't have any of the equipment and are starting from scratch with this project, then don't sell the 7mm bullets short. Do a JBM comparision of a Remington 7mmSAUM with a 180 SMK @ 2900 fps against the following; - 6.5x284 142 SMK @ 3000 fps: 1000 yds: -25.3 MOA, Wind Drift 9.7 MOA
- 260 Remington 142 SMK @2800 fps: 1000 yds: -29.9 MOA, Wind Drift 10.9 MOA
- 243 Winchester 107 SMK @3000 fps: 1000 yds: -27.0 MOA, Wind Drift 11.0 MOA
- 6mm Remington 107 SMK @ 3100 fps: 1000 yds: -24.9 MOA, Wind Drift 10.4 MOA
- 7mm SAUM 180 SMK @ 2900 fps: 1000 yds: -25.7 MOA, Wind Drift 8.6 MOA
You may like what you see. I did last night and I like what I saw. It has less drop and wind deflection using 90 deg @ 15 mph than all of the above. I'll confess when gathering info on a cartridge you don't have becomes subjective. I searched several sites and the consences was an average of what I listed above. About the max velocity I saw for the 260 Remington with 142 SMK was 2940 and there were concerns of the pressure signs. Sure, the 260 Remington can be driven faster than 2800 as can the 243 Winchester but are they accurate and again, how are the pressure signs? I have a 6mm Remington that I can drive a 107 much faster than 3100, but then it is out of the sweet-spot. The 115 gr is also available if I wanted too.
I'm not knocking the 6.5 cartridges or any others for that matter. They're all good and with Lapua offering 260 Remington brass, that would be a hard cartridge not to consider. Same as the 260 A/I. Not sure of the barrel life of a 260 A/I, figuring it would be similar to the 6.5x284. I believe if you went with either of these cartridges you'll be able to accomplish what you want. Another cartridge (7mm) is the 284 Winchester. It ain't no slouch either. BC-for-BC, and if you need the energy, the 7mm bullets are tough to beat.
Maybe I've misread some of your earlier post but I believe I've seen some pretty high velocities for the 6mm bullets (3600, 3700, 3900). I don't see the 105/107/115 VLD bullets doing that velocity in the 6mm Remington or 243 cases (6x284 is unknown). Maybe a 6mm-06.
HTH
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8shots
Optics Jedi Knight Lord Of The Flies Joined: March/14/2007 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 6253 |
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To clarify, I only need ballistics out to 380 yds. No further.
And I need the least amount of drop over this distance. That is all.
I also need no terminal velocity. It only needs to go through paper.
Edited by 8shots - September/13/2011 at 10:35 |
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billyburl2
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: January/08/2009 Location: Cottonwood, AZ Status: Offline Points: 4015 |
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How about the 223 and 243 wssm's? Both are going to be torches on the throat but...YMMV
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If it is tourist season, why can't we shoot them?
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