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7mm08 or 308

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2016 at 19:23
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BF you're crackin' me up.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2016 at 19:37
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It's settled 6.5 Creedmoor.



BF is old and so is the 8MM.



In deference to our " RD " 7MM Winkle is OK also!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/19/2016 at 09:00
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Don't sell the 8mm short. From my experience, the 8mm is more than an equal to the 30-06.
Now before this argument gets all mucked up, I'm talking REAL 8mm Mauser military loads, and not those down loaded commercial loads made for pre 1910 Mauser 98s. There is a big difference between the two.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/19/2016 at 09:14
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That's why 7mmSTW rules… 8mm RemMag necked down to 7mm. Which makes it AWESOME.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/19/2016 at 10:07
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Originally posted by BeltFed BeltFed wrote:

Don't sell the 8mm short. From my experience, the 8mm is more than an equal to the 30-06.
Now before this argument gets all mucked up, I'm talking REAL 8mm Mauser military loads, and not those down loaded commercial loads made for pre 1910 Mauser 98s. There is a big difference between the two.

Bring back the .276 Pedersen!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/19/2016 at 10:36
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7mm.08   Light It Up
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/29/2016 at 08:23
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Tried my favorite powder for the 308 (Leverevolution) in a new 7mm08 26" barrel in a Savage 10 action. Using a 145 gr all copper bullet I measured 2940 fps with no pressure signs using WLRM primers.  There is published data using CFE 223 in the 2016 Hodgdon Annual Manual and is a similar powder.  LVR is slower burning. I keyed off from this data to determine a starting load. If one wants to try LVR, start out using 41 gr and work up.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/01/2016 at 09:30
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Originally posted by jonoMT jonoMT wrote:

Just to refresh myself on why I've chosen to stick with .308 Win I went back and compared ballistics. This is a limited comparison. But it's real world for me. Factors I considered were:
  •  Distances that I'd shoot. I've chosen for ethical hunting to limit myself to 500 yards max. 
  • I'm limiting the powder to Varget and only comparing two bullets (the 168-grain Berger Classic Hunter in .308 and .284).
  • I dial corrections over 300 yards

One thing to bear in mind, at least with these two bullets is that the 7mm version is ~.1" longer, diminishing case capacity. As I've mentioned before, I load the .308 bullet to 45 grains. I'd be surprised to get more than 41 grains with the 7mm bullet and still load to 2.81 OAL. Accordingly, I've used 2750 fps MV for the .308 load and 2700 for the 7mm load. I set a crosswind of 10 mph. 

<table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="144" style="border-collapse:   collapse;width:108pt">
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<td height="20" ="xl63" width="47" style="height:15.0pt;width:35pt">Range</td>
<td ="xl63" width="37" style="width:28pt">Drop</td>
<td ="xl63" width="60" style="width:45pt">Windage</td>
</tr>
<tr height="20" style="height:15.0pt">
<td height="20" ="xl63" style="height:15.0pt">(yd)</td>
<td ="xl63">(mil)</td>
<td ="xl63">(mil)</td>
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<td height="20" ="xl63" style="height:15.0pt"></td>
<td ="xl63"></td>
<td ="xl63"></td>
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<tr height="20" style="height:15.0pt">
<td height="20" ="xl63" style="height:15.0pt">7mm</td>
<td ="xl63"></td>
<td ="xl63"></td>
</tr>
<tr height="20" style="height:15.0pt">
<td height="20" align="right" style="height:15.0pt">200</td>
<td align="right">-0.5</td>
<td align="right">0.3</td>
</tr>
<tr height="20" style="height:15.0pt">
<td height="20" align="right" style="height:15.0pt">300</td>
<td align="right">-1.3</td>
<td align="right">0.5</td>
</tr>
<tr height="20" style="height:15.0pt">
<td height="20" align="right" style="height:15.0pt">400</td>
<td align="right">-2.1</td>
<td align="right">0.7</td>
</tr>
<tr height="20" style="height:15.0pt">
<td height="20" align="right" style="height:15.0pt">500</td>
<td align="right">-3</td>
<td align="right">0.9</td>
</tr>
<tr height="20" style="height:15.0pt">
<td height="20" style="height:15.0pt"></td>
<td></td>
<td></td>
</tr>
<tr height="20" style="height:15.0pt">
<td height="20" ="xl64" style="height:15.0pt">.308</td>
<td ="xl63"></td>
<td ="xl63"></td>
</tr>
<tr height="20" style="height:15.0pt">
<td height="20" align="right" style="height:15.0pt">200</td>
<td align="right">-0.5</td>
<td align="right">0.4</td>
</tr>
<tr height="20" style="height:15.0pt">
<td height="20" align="right" style="height:15.0pt">300</td>
<td align="right">-1.3</td>
<td align="right">0.6</td>
</tr>
<tr height="20" style="height:15.0pt">
<td height="20" align="right" style="height:15.0pt">400</td>
<td align="right">-2.1</td>
<td align="right">0.8</td>
</tr>
<tr height="20" style="height:15.0pt">
<td height="20" align="right" style="height:15.0pt">500</td>
<td align="right">-3.1</td>
<td align="right">1.1</td>
</tr></t></table>
My table only contains mil values because that's all I use. As you can see drops are basically the same. The 7mm-08 gains an advantage on windage as you go out. And, back to real world results, that translates into a 3.5" difference at 500 yards.

No doubt with load tweaking or at longer distances, in stiffer winds, etc. somebody could make the case that the 7mm-08 is superior. In my application it just wasn't enough to justify having multiple sets of dies and brass (and perhaps different powders). If I'd never owned a .308, yeah, I'd start out with the 7mm-08.
Shooting a 168 Bulldozer with a BC of .520 instead of the classic hunters .489 in the .308 may change that game a bit too.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/01/2016 at 16:18
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I really need to arrange getting a few from you to try. Checked out the Badlands FB page (https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1507843189520956&id=1424284557876820)
Cool stuff.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/03/2016 at 06:19
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About 3 weeks ago I loaded up a box of 308 Win bullets for patient of mine who was going Elk hunting and wanted to try the 150 Bulldozer. I sighted the rifle in for him to a 350 yd zero. He got 2 Elk each with a single shot and he said they dropped in their tracks. One was hit at 300 yds ant the other at 400 yds. The rifle was an old Rem 700 ADL with a 4X32 Tasco fixed power scope. At autopsy he said both bullets exited, there was minimal meat damage, but everything in between was "messed up".  These results mirror what Jason and I saw on our plains game hunt in June where we got 7 animals in 7 shots at ranges from 40-482 yds. He has made a 145 gr 7mm with a hollow point of the same design.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/03/2016 at 06:20
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Originally posted by jonoMT jonoMT wrote:

I really need to arrange getting a few from you to try. Checked out the Badlands FB page (https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1507843189520956&id=1424284557876820)
Cool stuff.
I know you mentioned being a Palma shooter. We do have a 155gr .308 Palma bullet with a BC pushing .5 that's a real killer in a .308
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/14/2016 at 20:12
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Have preliminarily tried necking down the 308 Lapua Palma brass to 7mm to use in the 7mm08. So far so good. Will load up a series and see if the uniformity in muzzle velocity is greater than the normal large rifle primer brass.  Have noted that the neck length in the fire formed brass is about 0.010" shorter
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/28/2016 at 15:56
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What is a Bulldozer bullet? 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/28/2016 at 17:58
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Solid copper lathe turned turned tipped hollow point hunting bullet. Second from left, with the Aluminum tip. Manufactured by Badlands Precision in South Dakota. Just now starting full production, and a website is coming by year end.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/29/2016 at 04:45
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I have 50. As soon as Silvia is back from the smith I'm heading out to Brocks Gap to do some load work up. May run them in a 300 blackout too. Just for giggle's. Jason, question, due to being a solid and having larger bearing surfaces this bullet will act more like a 175 or a 180 in the bore I presume. What's your take on loading it like a 175 Scenar?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/29/2016 at 12:22
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Is that sort of like the remington Bronze tip? 

I never know what to load in mine. I got some loose 150 grain core lokt's from a store years ago, and just got some Hornday SPBT 165 grain ones the other day. I am not the biggest fan of a core lokt. The Hornady bullets have always performed well for me in the 308. 

I might have a shot that is basically bow range, out to 400 yards where I hunt. We have powerlines and big cutovers. 

And I really prefer a bullet that exits too. I like having 2 holes. I saw one online yesterday, maybe the Berger, that says it penetrates 3 inches and then fragments. That sounds good, unless the deer doesn't drop, then you have to try to find it without much of a blood trail. Which is tough. 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/30/2016 at 01:37
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Originally posted by Steelbenz Steelbenz wrote:


I have 50. As soon as Silvia is back from the smith I'm heading out to Brocks Gap to do some load work up. May run them in a 300 blackout too. Just for giggle's. Jason, question, due to being a solid and having larger bearing surfaces this bullet will act more like a 175 or a 180 in the bore I presume. What's your take on loading it like a 175 Scenar?
they really don't have very long bearing surfaces comparatively. The relief grooves cut it down quite a bit. They do, however take up some powder capacity, as they're long for weight. You should be able to use load data for a 168 Barnes TTSX. We've been using standard load data for the bullet weights we're shooting. Just be sure to start at the starting loads and work up carefully.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/30/2016 at 01:45
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Originally posted by Lockjaw Lockjaw wrote:

Is that sort of like the remington Bronze tip? 

I never know what to load in mine. I got some loose 150 grain core lokt's from a store years ago, and just got some Hornday SPBT 165 grain ones the other day. I am not the biggest fan of a core lokt. The Hornady bullets have always performed well for me in the 308. 

I might have a shot that is basically bow range, out to 400 yards where I hunt. We have powerlines and big cutovers. 

And I really prefer a bullet that exits too. I like having 2 holes. I saw one online yesterday, maybe the Berger, that says it penetrates 3 inches and then fragments. That sounds good, unless the deer doesn't drop, then you have to try to find it without much of a blood trail. Which is tough. 

Actually no, the bullet construction is quite different. The bronze point was a lead cored jacketed bullet, with a bronze tip swaged into it. The bulldozers start out as a solid copper bar stock, and are turned on a precision Swiss turning center, and drilled and broached. Then a precision aluminum tip is turned on the same turning center and pressed into the hollow point. Construction would be similar to a Barnes TTSX, but with a non melting aluminum tip instead of polymer, and using mathematically calculated low drag shapes optimized for supersonic flight in place of a tangent radius ogive, and straight boat tail. They're also far more consistent, and the hollow point designed to open over a broader velocity range. They are designed to double diameter when expanded but retain their weight. Of about a dozen animals taken so far, only 1 bullet has ever been recovered. It was from about a 350lb red hartebeest, shot quartering hard away, which entered the back of the ribcage, destroyed the vitals, smashed 2 vertebrae, and was found under the hide in front of the shoulder. It was fully expanded and retained 86% of its weight.

Edited by trigger29 - November/30/2016 at 01:51
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/01/2016 at 16:54
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It sounds like it might be a good option for me to load. Not like I have anything giant down here to shoot, but.... I do need something that can do the job in my 308, because I like it better than my 270, which is what I would take to hunt on a powerline or over a cut over here. 

I like what you said about them going through and through. That is what I want. 2 holes are always better than 1 if you ask me. 

If my gun will shoot them well. 

I never understood all this with these guns. I have had 3 rifles in 270, a savage that was just brutal, a winchester, which was ok, and a Remy 700, which is still potent. I got a Ruger M77 Carbine in 708 that is just awesome to shoot. Then got a Hawkeye in 308, same size, only 1/4 pound lighter, and then the 700 Tactical model last year. The tactical is lighter than my 270 in a Hogue stock. Go figure. And kicks less. Alot less. Even the little ruger, which is under 6 pounds without scope and sling is tame compared to the 270. 

I can shoot the 708 all day long. Same with either 308. My 270 doesn't kick so bad in the hogue stock, but it still thumps. 


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Lockjaw, I have many Savages because I like the ease with which you can change the barrels. We use them for most of our testing. The problem is that their stocks suck, so the felt recoil seems greater. You might consider a  thumbhole stock which directs the recoil in a straight line and the grip allows your hand to dampen some of the recoil.  If I can get Jason to do it, we, hopefully this century some time, will have an absolutely killer bullet for the 270, Yippee
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My next adventure will be those 6.5 124gr bullets. But I want to play with the 308 first.
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Originally posted by nralifer nralifer wrote:

 If I can get Jason to do it, we, hopefully this century some time, will have an absolutely killer bullet for the 270, Yippee
Well, those just got pushed back another week.....
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PM me details of the 6.5 bullet please.
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Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

7mm Winkle! 


Some things in life are so self-evident, I'm surprised this even requires any deliberation!

I am going to go out on a limb ans guess that you are talking about 280Rem...

ILya
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Originally posted by nralifer nralifer wrote:

Lockjaw, I have many Savages because I like the ease with which you can change the barrels. We use them for most of our testing. The problem is that their stocks suck, so the felt recoil seems greater. You might consider a  thumbhole stock which directs the recoil in a straight line and the grip allows your hand to dampen some of the recoil.  If I can get Jason to do it, we, hopefully this century some time, will have an absolutely killer bullet for the 270, Yippee

This was one of the early Savage 110 rifles. It was a wood stock, and good grief it was brutal. My buddy had an A bolt in 7mag that was tame by comparison. His dad had a Remington Model 7 in 708 in a B&C stock, and it was a handful too. 

My 700 270 came in the old Rynite stock. It sits in a Hogue with the bedding block. I have a newer model factory stock for it as well, I think it has a limbsaver pad on it. 

When I was looking for a Tactical 308, I was considering one of the Savages, but they are harder to find around here. I looked at a Marlin, of all things, and liked it, but couldn't find a stock for it. I looked at a Tikka, and liked it, didn't like the 100 bucks for a magazine aspect though. I looked at both Remingtons, the one with the threaded barrel and one without, and got the threaded. 

I was looking for a Savage 10FP I think. The one with a heavier barrel and oversize bolt handle. 

Funny thing, I can put my Remington 700 Tac with a 20 in barrel next to one of my Ruger Carbines, and OMG, it looks huge. And I love both my carbines, but that tac model is just a fun gun. I can shoot it all day long. And I am a big fan of the 308, and the 708. 
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