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7mm08 or 308

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/10/2016 at 20:20
RifleDude View Drop Down
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The reason it's valid to compare bullets of roughly the same weight between .308 and 7mm-08 is because the .308 simply cannot exploit the benefits of bullets over 180 grains or so. 

First, let's cut to the chase... there is nothing that .308 can do in any scenario that 7mm-08 can't likewise do, including use the same brass. For the most part, the opposite is also true, except when it pertains to drift and drop. Given the full range of today's bullets, the 7mm-08 kicks the .308's azz. There is no critter that walks the earth that a .308 will drop in its tracks that will run away from a similarly constructed  7mm bullet launched from a 7-08 case. What the .308 gains in additional bullet mass, the 7-08 offsets in higher BC and higher starting velocity.

Not only does the .308 case lack the charcoal to drive the high BC .30 cal heavies fast enough to make use of their BC advantage over a typical high BC 162-168 gr 7mm bullet, but you typically have to seat the 190 - 208 gr. VLD type .30s so deep to work within mag box length constraints that you consume additional powder space in the process. As a result, you only get around 2400 fps or so at best MV with a 208. The 208's slight BC advantage is thus handicapped by much lower starting velocity over a typical 162 - 168 7mm bullet traveling at around 2600 fps out of a 7-08, and you pretty much have to go over 190 gr in the .30 bullets to start seeing a BC advantage over a typical high BC 160ish 7mm bullet. In addition, unless you have a very short throated chamber, you typically won't be able to seat a 200+gr bullet close to the lands out of a typical bolt action in .308 due to mag box OAL limitations. So although you can load a 208 in a .308, these bullets are best suited to .300 mag case capacities and velocities to maximize their potential.

A 7mm 162gr. bullet will penetrate to approximately the same depth in the same object as a 190 gr .30 cal bullet and create a similar wound channel, because the increased mass and momentum of the heavier .30 is offset by its slightly larger frontal diameter.

For comparison, given the same conditions, same 250 yd zero...
.308 w/ 208 gr. bullet w/ G1 BC of .670 @ MV of 2400
vs. 
7mm-08 w/ 162 gr. bullet w/ G1 BC of .625

At only 350 yds, the 162 7mm already has an advantage, with 2" less drop and slightly less drift in 10mph direct 90-deg cross wind than the 208 .308. (-10.7" vs. -12.7 and 1.9" vs. 2.1").
At 500 yards, the 162 drops a full 7" less than the 208 (-41.5" vs. -49") and drifts about a half inch less (6" vs. 6.5")
At 1000 yards, the 162 is simply spanking the 208, with 55" less drop (-322" vs. -377.5) and around 3" less drift (40.7" vs. 43.7").
All of this while still producing less recoil than the .308 w/ 208.

Do any ballistic comparison you wish. There is no combination of bullet and velocity achievable out of the .308 using the most optimal bullets available in .30 that the 7-08 won't beat (and usually beat handily) in terms of drop and drift, also optimizing bullet choices. 7mm has just as wide a bullet selection for any purpose as .30 cal does, and it will penetrate as well or better than the .30 in the same media...all while working better in typical short action mag boxes and being able to kiss or crowd lands, all while producing less recoil. The .308's recoil isn't by any means punishing, but nevertheless, it's still greater with less "return on investment" in the bargain. This of course assumes we're comparing only what is achievable in 7-08 vs. .308 loads.

If you reload, the .308's excellent brass quality and availability applies to both equally. There is no better starting point for a 7-08 load than using Lapua .308 brass. Partial neck sizing the .308 case in a 7-08 die to provide a false shoulder to achieve min headspace fireformed brass is a great way to roll. Half of my 7-08 brass thinks it's .308, 'cuz that's what it says on the heads. My 7-08 rifles certainly are none the wiser.

The appeal of the 7-08 is that it represents as optimal a compromise between ballistics, terminal performance, bullet selection, brass availability and quality, and low recoil in a short action. If you're a short action fan, it's tough to beat. The same can basically be said of the .260, 6.5 Creed, 6.5X47. 

Bullet design and construction is what's most important here. You can get bullets that will have essentially the same terminal performance in 7mm as .30, until you get to bullets weighing over 190gr or so, where the .30 cal has an obvious edge. The bottom line is that at the point .30 cal begins to gain a ballistic advantage over 7mm, you have to go with magnum case capacities and long actions, with a corresponding recoil penalty. In a short action rifle of the same design and barrel length, the 7-08 stomps the .308 silly.

This doesn't mean there's anything wrong with .308. It's a fine cartridge. However, the only advantage .308 has over a 7-08 is in number of available rifles chambered in each and factory ammo availability if one doesn't intend to ever handload. 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/10/2016 at 20:50
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Couldn't have said it better myselfBandito
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/10/2016 at 21:52
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"That's the fact Jack!!"

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/10/2016 at 22:06
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All good if you are in the market for a new rifle in a deer caliber but with  308s, 300Wm and 300WSM the concept of needing a 7mm anything is not a pressing issue for me.  I just dont need anything that light so the caliber I would  like to add at this point would be good .375 H&H  and that's a want not a need, cause I do have an encore barrel, I wish Tikka made one.  Other than that I would love to add a lever 45-70 Marlin just for fun. 




Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - May/10/2016 at 22:11
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/11/2016 at 07:43
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You need a 7-08, Wes. You just don't realize it yet.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/11/2016 at 08:07
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Several years back I read a magazine article where the author had collected data across elk hunting states where data was recorded on calibers used and results.  For that particular study, 7mm-08 rated highest for minimal recoil vs range vs one shot kill (probably accuracy).

Not bad.


However, I still don't need one...it's not in my color wheel...

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/11/2016 at 08:33
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Devil Oh, I think what he REALLY NEEDS is a 270Stiring The Pot
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/11/2016 at 09:20
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Get Your Popcorn Ready
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/11/2016 at 17:01
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did anyone mention anything about the .308 pushing an 150gr faster than a 7mm08 will at short range?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/11/2016 at 17:23
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I don't think the animal would know the difference at short range. Hit it in the right place end of story.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/11/2016 at 17:52
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Originally posted by Peddler Peddler wrote:

I don't think the animal would know the difference at short range. Hit it in the right place end of story.


Yeah who cares, some just like to stir the pot.  Ted has over engineered this one in a great way, no way you gonna win.  Big Grin
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/11/2016 at 17:59
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Yep, but right now the Creedmoor rules the Peddler household with two of 'em!

They kill Whitetails toooo, well I better qualify that. Hers does mine has only killed paper so far.😂
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/11/2016 at 18:43
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It's a little known fact that Billy Dixon did not use a .50-90 Sharps to make his famous 1 mile kill at the Battle of Adobe Walls as is widely reported, but instead, it was an early prototype of the 7mm-08!Cool
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/11/2016 at 18:57
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I think I just wet myself!!!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2016 at 09:10
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If the Germans had had more of these

and fewer of these

the outcome of the war would have been the same give or take a week or two.
Just sayin.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2016 at 09:13
Ernie Bishop View Drop Down
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Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

It's a little known fact that Billy Dixon did not use a .50-90 Sharps to make his famous 1 mile kill at the Battle of Adobe Walls as is widely reported, but instead, it was an early prototype of the 7mm-08!Cool

HA!Bandito
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2016 at 09:42
mike650 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by BeltFed BeltFed wrote:

If the Germans had had more of these

and fewer of these

the outcome of the war would have been the same give or take a week or two.
Just sayin.


Great examples of German over engineering. ;-)
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2016 at 11:03
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Thanks Mike
To the relation of the topic at hand, The Tiger had an 88mm gun (88mm x L56 if I remember correctly), and the Panther had a 75mm x L70 gun. While the 88 had greater armor penetration at normal combat ranges (at least for the German panzers), the 75 L70 had higher penetration capabilities than the 88 at the far edges of those ranges. Giving the Panther the long range edge over the Tiger.
This comparison does not include the King Tiger with it's 88mm x L70 gun, which would be like comparing the 7-08 to the 300 Win Mag.Big Smile
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2016 at 13:23
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30-cal or BUST!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2016 at 13:50
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One of my favorite words.😎
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2016 at 15:25
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Originally posted by BeltFed BeltFed wrote:

Thanks Mike
To the relation of the topic at hand, The Tiger had an 88mm gun (88mm x L56 if I remember correctly), and the Panther had a 75mm x L70 gun. While the 88 had greater armor penetration at normal combat ranges (at least for the German panzers), the 75 L70 had higher penetration capabilities than the 88 at the far edges of those ranges. Giving the Panther the long range edge over the Tiger.
This comparison does not include the King Tiger with it's 88mm x L70 gun, which would be like comparing the 7-08 to the 300 Win Mag.Big Smile


I like the analogy.      Tank  my 7mm.08  Bandito


My daughter with a restored to pristine condition panther from a few years ago.





Edited by mike650 - May/12/2016 at 17:44
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2016 at 15:30
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That's cool, Mike! WOW...love those old tanks. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2016 at 15:39
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Oh Mike, I just got a chubby.

That's a Ausf. A model. Was that in a private collection in California?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2016 at 15:43
cheaptrick View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

30-cal or BUST!

Looks like RC is gonna "stick to his guns". 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2016 at 15:51
BeltFed View Drop Down
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Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

30-cal or BUST!

Looks like RC is gonna "stick to his guns". 

I think he's talking about the 300 Win Mag.
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