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Any custom rifle idea’s?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/26/2007 at 09:54

For more info on the 6mm XC:

http://www.6mmbr.com/6XC.html

 

I still think you would be well-served with the 6mm BR as well.  It is easier on barrels and it has been dominant in 1000 yd competition, so it has a well-established reputation for superb accuracy.  On top of that, brass is readily available without having to form from .22-250 brass like you will need to do for the 6XC.  Just a thought.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/26/2007 at 17:01
Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

So hah???? whats that

maybe the two should get a room

DC, you are such a jerk, kind of like rms/asphunter and half of the words out of your mouth are pure garbage.  I was speaking directly to asphunter.  Read the post, if you are capable, instead of responding in a half ass silly manner.  I want to see you crank up your 1000 round a day shoots.  Hit me now.  Yea, I am in the mood for controversy and I am still at work.  FF.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/26/2007 at 17:49

Originally posted by yellowdog yellowdog wrote:

    Boy!, you guy's got me scraching my head, I'm not quite sure on long, or short yet. I've never had anything in a 6mm before, still doing some research. As far as budget, I would like to stay within the $1.500 mark, less scope if I could.   By the looks of the groups Mr. Tubb's is laying in on paper at 1000 yd's, that " 6mmXC" would be nice.    Oh yea, who makes these customized  700 drop in actions.   Thank you all for the feed back!

If your budget, minus the scope is 1500 dollars, you are going to have to re-think some things.  The barrel is going to be about 400 dollars.  The drop in actions could go 1500 alone, depending on which you choose.  Many companies make great actions for alot less, without the fancy polishing and stainless steel that attract so many people.  Savage has actions now for sale.  Probably the best value for the money are the Howa actions, which can be had in SS for less than 400 dollars or there abouts.  I am sure DC would throw up at the thought, but they are quality built actions.  Its not like an action is made by a computer assited assembly line.  They are mostly hand built, from the components.  Or better yet, buy a used Wby. and get the finest action out there.  Yes, they have their limitations in the ability to modify, but that is based on the limited number of gunsmiths who can work on them and their complexity.  But, they are solid and will not let you down.  Or you can get a Remington SPS (or buy a used Remington with a 700 action) and take the action from it and you could have it customized when you have the money.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/26/2007 at 18:16
Relax man don't bend your paper hat. laughed for 15 mins at the so hah-- my youngest does the same thing hes funny too. if you were talking to asp pm him instead of putting where everyone can see it. At least the other half out of my mouth aren't from magazine articles.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/26/2007 at 18:20
i still dont see what wrong with reading magazine articles
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/26/2007 at 19:15
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

If your budget, minus the scope is 1500 dollars, you are going to have to re-think some things.  The barrel is going to be about 400 dollars.  The drop in actions could go 1500 alone, depending on which you choose.  Many companies make great actions for alot less, without the fancy polishing and stainless steel that attract so many people.  Savage has actions now for sale.  Probably the best value for the money are the Howa actions, which can be had in SS for less than 400 dollars or there abouts.  I am sure DC would throw up at the thought, but they are quality built actions.  Its not like an action is made by a computer assited assembly line.  They are mostly hand built, from the components.  Or better yet, buy a used Wby. and get the finest action out there.  Yes, they have their limitations in the ability to modify, but that is based on the limited number of gunsmiths who can work on them and their complexity.  But, they are solid and will not let you down.  Or you can get a Remington SPS (or buy a used Remington with a 700 action) and take the action from it and you could have it customized when you have the money.

 

Actually, the Stiller Predator action mentioned earlier costs $750.  The Borden Alpine / Timberline costs about $100 more.  If I were starting from scratch, as yellowdog suggests, I wouldn't use ANY factory action as the basis for the rifle, due to the fact that by the time you buy a barreled action and have it completely trued, you'll have more than $750 tied up in it and at best will have a foundation "as good as" the custom action functionally, but worth much less.  That's why I can't stress enough that if you're building a complete custom rifle on a Remington 700 action footprint and you intend to do "the works" in terms of accuracy enhancements, you're far better off starting with a custom action rather than trying to "make a silk purse out of a sow's ear."  If you were dead set on customizing a factory action, and your #1 goal was pure accuracy over any other virtue, the Remington 700 is the best factory action for this purpose because several aftermarket match triggers are available for the Rem trigger hangar and it's the easiest action to blueprint.  You can build a good rifle around any of the actions you mention.

No actions on the market today are "hand built," btw, except for final assembly.  They are all machined on CNC machining centers and lathes and/or investment cast.

 

It's not that gunsmiths can't work on Wby MK IV actions, it's just that, as the basis of a "no compromises" accuracy rifle, it has some inherent design problems making it not the best choice for that type of rifle, and there's a lack of true match grade aftermarket trigger assemblies for it.  The reason -- there isn't a market for them, because it isn't commonly used as the basis for custom competition and super accurate rifles.  For the same reasons, there isn't a great selection of aftermarket stocks for the MK IV either, or at least not very many designed for precision shooting.  As the basis for a custom hunting rifle, especially for dangerous game, it would be a good choice, though not my personal favorite.  No doubt it is a well-made action, though.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/27/2007 at 05:58
the m700 works well too
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/27/2007 at 08:11
Savage action is great and now they sell them brand new.  I personally prefer the Howa.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/27/2007 at 08:44
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

If your budget, minus the scope is 1500 dollars, you are going to have to re-think some things.  The barrel is going to be about 400 dollars.  The drop in actions could go 1500 alone, depending on which you choose.  Many companies make great actions for alot less, without the fancy polishing and stainless steel that attract so many people.  Savage has actions now for sale.  Probably the best value for the money are the Howa actions, which can be had in SS for less than 400 dollars or there abouts.  I am sure DC would throw up at the thought, but they are quality built actions.  Its not like an action is made by a computer assited assembly line.  They are mostly hand built, from the components.  Or better yet, buy a used Wby. and get the finest action out there.  Yes, they have their limitations in the ability to modify, but that is based on the limited number of gunsmiths who can work on them and their complexity.  But, they are solid and will not let you down.  Or you can get a Remington SPS (or buy a used Remington with a 700 action) and take the action from it and you could have it customized when you have the money.

 

Actually, the Stiller Predator action mentioned earlier costs $750.  The Borden Alpine / Timberline costs about $100 more.  If I were starting from scratch, as yellowdog suggests, I wouldn't use ANY factory action as the basis for the rifle, due to the fact that by the time you buy a barreled action and have it completely trued, you'll have more than $750 tied up in it and at best will have a foundation "as good as" the custom action functionally, but worth much less.  That's why I can't stress enough that if you're building a complete custom rifle on a Remington 700 action footprint and you intend to do "the works" in terms of accuracy enhancements, you're far better off starting with a custom action rather than trying to "make a silk purse out of a sow's ear."  If you were dead set on customizing a factory action, and your #1 goal was pure accuracy over any other virtue, the Remington 700 is the best factory action for this purpose because several aftermarket match triggers are available for the Rem trigger hangar and it's the easiest action to blueprint.  You can build a good rifle around any of the actions you mention.

No actions on the market today are "hand built," btw, except for final assembly.  They are all machined on CNC machining centers and lathes and/or investment cast.

 

It's not that gunsmiths can't work on Wby MK IV actions, it's just that, as the basis of a "no compromises" accuracy rifle, it has some inherent design problems making it not the best choice for that type of rifle, and there's a lack of true match grade aftermarket trigger assemblies for it.  The reason -- there isn't a market for them, because it isn't commonly used as the basis for custom competition and super accurate rifles.  For the same reasons, there isn't a great selection of aftermarket stocks for the MK IV either, or at least not very many designed for precision shooting.  As the basis for a custom hunting rifle, especially for dangerous game, it would be a good choice, though not my personal favorite.  No doubt it is a well-made action, though.

Now here is where Rifledude and I tend to differ somewhat.  He is exactly right about using a 700 footprinted action and I have to admit, I did not know you could get one that cheap.  Still, you will be pushing your budget.  Second, when I mean hand built, I mean the final assembly.  What I also meant, is that all the parts or metal are not feed into a machine and out comes a fully working action, with trigger and all.  In addition, there is also this notion that aftermarket is always better.  This applies to cars, audio equipment and any other hobby you can think of.  Alot of times this is true.  My opinion of the Mark V actions is based on years of use by many people, years of use by myself, glowing reviews through the years by numerous and countless writers and that silky smooth feel, not to count the fact it is without a doubt the strongest action made.  Now, for a 22-250, the strongest actions is not necessary, but a strong stiff action is.  Rifledude has lead you in the right direction without a doubt.  Extremely knowledgable man, probably one of the most on the site.  He is right about the reason for after market parts for the Mark V action.  The 700 is a simpler action to work with, at least that is what countless gunsmiths have told me, but still an excellent action and hence the reason so many people use them.  In addition, many people have self taught themselves how to do alot of work on them to save money.  But, again, you can get a 700 action inexpensively now and when you get more money, have it blueprinted later, if you need the extra accuracy.  You may not.  Yes it will cost more, but you will get into your rifle sooner.  No offenses Rifledude.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/27/2007 at 09:50

Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

Relax man don't bend your paper hat. laughed for 15 mins at the so hah-- my youngest does the same thing hes funny too. if you were talking to asp pm him instead of putting where everyone can see it. At least the other half out of my mouth aren't from magazine articles.

I agree with pyro6999.  What is wrong with reading magazine articles?  Or is it that you already know everything?  Even if you do know everything, its nice to see what is new, some reloading articles (oh, I guess you have reloaded every size bullet in every possible permutation as possible), as well as the editorials and letters.  By the way, I bought a new paper hat. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/27/2007 at 09:54
 So much for practice theatre. Yellow dog you getting anything out of this?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jonbravado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/27/2007 at 15:17

well, the actions and accutrigger on savage are quite excellent IMO - ESPECIALLY for the money.

 

be careful not to offend the remington faithful's around here.

LOTS of folks swear up and down on remington and leupolds (nothing wrong w/ that - both are just fine)

but there is much more out there.

 

the sako M995 action (found in trg models, hunting trg-s and sniping trg-22, 41) is by far the best action

i have put in my hands and on paper. if you can find one of those, you will be off to a fantastic start.

 

good luck.  i have heard the same about remington actions having to be tweaked a good bit.

 

J

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jonbravado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/27/2007 at 15:20

my bad -

 

just saw you were looking for a 700 action - sorry.

 

J

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/27/2007 at 15:39
Originally posted by jonbravado jonbravado wrote:

well, the actions and accutrigger on savage are quite excellent IMO - ESPECIALLY for the money.

 

be careful not to offend the remington faithful's around here.

LOTS of folks swear up and down on remington and leupolds (nothing wrong w/ that - both are just fine)

but there is much more out there.

 

the sako M995 action (found in trg models, hunting trg-s and sniping trg-22, 41) is by far the best action

i have put in my hands and on paper. if you can find one of those, you will be off to a fantastic start.

 

good luck.  i have heard the same about remington actions having to be tweaked a good bit.

 

J

 

 

I agree with J.  The Savage actions are sweet.  And J is also right, there are alot of actions out there to choose from.  Unless you are going to shoot competition, I really worry about getting a blueprinted action, they are overpriced anyway.  Alot of the money goes into the appearance for purchase appeal.  Nice pretty polished stainless steel.  Get a Howa stainless steel model.  Go to www.legacysports.com and you will find them.  Strong actions, smooth working and reliable.  Best of all, not that expensive.  You can even get barreled actions.  If this custom is for hunting, do not go overboard.  I have two customs, one finished the other in the works, both I used Parker Hale actions.  One brand new, the other used, both out of other rifles.  They may not be the worlds best, but they are not the worst, they are fine actions and they were affordable.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote outdoorAg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/27/2007 at 16:05
So not to hijack this thread, but lets say you were in the following situation...

You want to buy a Rem 700 CDL. You are into hunting, not punching paper for prizes. But at the same time, you would to take that 700 and turn it into the most accurate HUNTING rifle possible. Where would you start? What steps would you take? Lets assume your budget is limited to 500 bucks. 500 big ones to take a factory CDL and make a fine shooting machine.

**Disclaimer: I have read and agree with  Dolphin and many other posters when they say that extreme accuracy is not needed in the field. There are things you cannot control that make attempting exceptional accuracy nearly impossible. Even with that said, you are still looking to take your CDL and make it shoot tight groups at 100,200 and 300 yards so when you go out and hunt the next morning, you know you are carrying a tack driver to the stand.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/27/2007 at 18:09

Originally posted by outdoorAg outdoorAg wrote:

So not to hijack this thread, but lets say you were in the following situation...

You want to buy a Rem 700 CDL. You are into hunting, not punching paper for prizes. But at the same time, you would to take that 700 and turn it into the most accurate HUNTING rifle possible. Where would you start? What steps would you take? Lets assume your budget is limited to 500 bucks. 500 big ones to take a factory CDL and make a fine shooting machine.

**Disclaimer: I have read and agree with  Dolphin and many other posters when they say that extreme accuracy is not needed in the field. There are things you cannot control that make attempting exceptional accuracy nearly impossible. Even with that said, you are still looking to take your CDL and make it shoot tight groups at 100,200 and 300 yards so when you go out and hunt the next morning, you know you are carrying a tack driver to the stand.

That is another way to do it.  I am glad there is some consensus on this issue without spending horrid amounts of money.  I hope this helps.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote outdoorAg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/27/2007 at 19:30

Thanks for the reply Dolphin. You have a lot of great advice to give here. It is indeed worth listening to and taking into account. So if you (or any other posters) were to do what I said, where would you start? What would be your plan of action with that approximate budget? It would be great info for those out there that want a little more out of their hunting rifles...

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I think your idea is good or getting a used Remington with a 700 action is a good way to go, or any of the other ways.  Savage actions are great and so are the Howas.  The advantages of the Remington 700s are that if you want to blueprint the action, it is easier to do, if you want to tighten your groups.  My personal opinion is, shoot the rifle, handload some shells and if your rifle is not shooting 1 MOA groups or groups to your satisfaction, then spend the money.  As someone has as their departing comment on this site, as well as other sites, 1 MOA is as good as 0.5 MOA groups, or something to that affect and nothing could be closer to the truth.  When shooting at 200 and 300 yards, those group differences that are based on the shooter become averaged and are of not concern.  Let the competition shooter take a block and tackle and haul their rigs up to a stand and shoot deer with their rigs, while the rest of us do real world hunting.  You know, a Mossberg ATR, which a proverbial piece of crap, shoots good groups and can be purchased by those hunters that can afford nothing else.  But, that is good for them, it brings more people into the sport of shooting and hunting.  Some, like DC, may not like that, but most people cannot afford the guns he can.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/27/2007 at 20:02

Originally posted by outdoorAg outdoorAg wrote:

So not to hijack this thread, but lets say you were in the following situation...

You want to buy a Rem 700 CDL. You are into hunting, not punching paper for prizes. But at the same time, you would to take that 700 and turn it into the most accurate HUNTING rifle possible. Where would you start? What steps would you take? Lets assume your budget is limited to 500 bucks. 500 big ones to take a factory CDL and make a fine shooting machine.

 

1.  Properly pillar bed the action, making sure the bedding is completely stress-free when finished.  When finished bedding, mount a dial indicator to the forend and put the probe on the barrel.  If when tightening and loosening the action screws you get more than about 0.003" of indicator movement, your bedding isn't stress-free and you won't get the best accuracy possible.  I like to add a little atomized stainless steel to my bedding compound mix in the recoil lug area for added insurance.  The bedding epoxy alone is probably plenty strong enough as-is, but the added SS powder gives me extra piece of mind.

2. Adjust the trigger to 2 - 2.5lbs or replace with a good aftermarket trigger -- Rifle Basix, Shilen, Timney, etc.  The Jewell is even better, but we're limiting total cost to $500 and the Jewell costs nearly half that.

3.  Sand out the d&%* pressure pad in the forend of all Remington wood stocked rifles to float the barrel and reseal the bare wood with some sort of wood sealer.

4.  Use good solid scope mounts, preferably with Torx screws on the bases.

5.  Experiment with different torque values on the front action screw. 

6.  Experiment with different handloads to find the most accurate for the rifle, using suitable bullets for the game.

7.  If it still doesn't shoot to expectations, recut the barrel crown.  If the crown shows nicks, it's a good idea to recut it anyway.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/27/2007 at 20:27

Originally posted by tenxes tenxes wrote:

The gunsmith here says that the Remington action has to be reworked to be any good but that the savage action is perfect as it comes from the factory. He also says it has a much superier trigger. Is that valid?

 

It's all a matter of degree.  What level of accuracy is required?  It isn't necessarily a requirement to rework any action to get good "hunting" accuracy.

 

While I would hardly call the Savage action "perfect," it's a dirty little secret -- though not much of a secret any more -- that Savage varmint rifles are some of the most accurate out-of-the box factory rifles you can buy, despite Savage's reputation as a "bargain" rifle.  One of the reasons is that they just plain make good barrels.  Savage is among the few mass-produced rifles that still button rifles, then individually straightens their barrels.  Another reason is due to that ugly barrel nut, which though a cost cutting measure, is also a clever idea for easily setting minimum headspace.  Since a shoulder isn't machined onto the barrel, the barrel is simply screwed against a chamber gauge and the spanner nut tightened down.  Another factor contributing to the Savage's accuracy is the fact the bolt head is a separate piece from the bolt body, which is allowed to "float" somewhat, providing even contact with both locking lugs.  You'd be surprised how many factory actions do not have all locking lugs evenly bearing against the receiver lug abutments.  Yes, the Accutrigger is nice, however some of the aftermarket triggers for the Savage, the Remington and other actions for that matter are even nicer.

 

One of the things I DO NOT like about the Savage action, in addition to a few cosmetic issues, is the fact the bolt stop doubles as the sear!  The bolt stop/sear is a large, pivoting stamped sheet metal piece.  I just don't think that feature is very well-designed.  I also don't particularly care for the loose baffle at the rear of the bolt directly in front of the exceptionally short bolt shroud.  Their lower end synthetic stocks are very cheap and way too flexible.  I do like their higher end rifles though, especially the new right bolt/left port configured "Long Range Precision Varmint" rifle with the HS Precision stock and the straight taper 1" dia barrel.  All reports on this rifle is that it will really shoot!

 

I think Savage offers perhaps the best accuracy performance for the $ you can buy, period.  Between a Savage 12 and the Remington 700, I would go Big Green only because I know I can make it shoot to my satisfaction and I would be more satisfied with the finished product.  In a big game hunting rifle I like the Remmy better as well.  But, if I were buying another varmint rifle and I didn't plan to do much tweaking with it, I'd go with the Savage, specifically the new LRPV.

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