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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/26/2018 at 14:12
RifleDude View Drop Down
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It's entirely a personal preference thing. I'm not arguing that velocity on target and its effect on temporary wound cavity is unimportant; far from it. I want the same dramatic temporary wound cavity you describe if possible. I'm just saying that I don't like the way an AR10 handles and think the weight:performance ratio is way skewed on that platform...too much weight and bulk in exchange for too little performance improvement. That's just my opinion, of course.

I like ARs, just not AR10s. If I want or need better terminal performance than what cartridges suitable for AR15 provide, then I'm leaving the AR at home to begin with and picking up a bolt action. The way I see it is an AR is in its element as a short to medium range weapon. The more distance you put between you and a sentient being, the less important having rapid follow-up shots becomes. I'm for condensing things down to the core elements necessary to accomplish a goal as much as possible, and a bolt action ticks all the check boxes in that regard. A bolt action offers the advantage of minimum protuberances, minimum mechanical complexity, usually a better trigger, greater reliability, and minimum weight (while permitting the important weight distribution in the right place), all while providing way better ballistic performance because you aren't constrained by having to keep COAL under 2.8" for function. This gives you greater latitude in bullet selection and seating depth, which again gives you better terminal performance.

Today's selection of bullets has completely thrown the old "minimum caliber" rules of thumb completely out the window.

To anyone who would argue that adding 2 more lbs to your rifle is no big deal, I ask you this: Given the choice, would you ever voluntarily core out a (hunting) rifle buttstock or mill a slot inside a forend and pour in 2 lbs worth of lead shot mixed with epoxy? If your answer to that is no, then weight does matter.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/26/2018 at 14:27
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Weight matters, but in a context. Circumstance dictates the tool to use, I agree AR10 is often the wrong tool; but would contend that, given the right set of circumstances, it is a great tool.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/26/2018 at 16:38
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Agreed on all counts, but if forced to make trade offs, even when weight is taken in context, I believe AR10 to offer a poor return on investment in the weight:performance ratio. For the same or less weight than an AR10, a guy can weild far greater horsepower in a bolt gun than .308 and other AR10 compatible rounds provide. Even the same rounds you’d chamber in a 10 will perform better in a bolt rifle. The latter allows greater mag box length for better bullet selection and COAL latitude, as well as a longer barrel at the same gun OAL due to considerably shorter receiver...all while tipping the scales at 2-3 lbs less, being significantly shorter in profile view, being more bulletproof functionally, better balanced, and lacking all the sharp corners and protrusions that stab you in the back while sling carrying. To me the slower follow-up shots and (sometimes) less mag capacity is overshadowed by those attributes.

I’m sure there’s some narrow niche where an AR10 is the superior tool over either its smaller sibling or a more powerful bolt rifle. I just can’t think of a single example myself. But again, that’s just my opinion. We all have different tastes in women, liquor, and tools.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/26/2018 at 17:01
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Who cares about all that crap.  What happened to just wanting a cool gun.  Bucky
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/26/2018 at 17:15
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Good point.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/26/2018 at 21:15
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This past weekend I had 3 coyotes running left to right in front of me at 100 yards, with an AR10 in 6.5CM. Guess how it ended? Predict how it could have with a bolt gun. There was less and 2 seconds visibility as they broke one tree line and headed into another.


For clarity: I had the 6.5CM, not the yotes. In rereading that, it could be interpreted both ways.

For clarity.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/26/2018 at 22:41
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

This past weekend I had 3 coyotes running left to right in front of me at 100 yards, with an AR10 in 6.5CM. Guess how it ended? Predict how it could have with a bolt gun. There was less and 2 seconds visibility as they broke one tree line and headed into another.

And how would it have ended any differently with an AR15 in any caliber that would function in a 15? In fact, I'd argue that in the majority of similar cases repeated, your hit % would be greater due to a livelier, handier parcel.

But you're totally missing my point. Given the ability to choose among the full gamut of available chamberings, an AR15 will handle the overwhelming majority of scenarios where an AR shines, at the short to moderate shot distances. When shot distance gets far enough that a bullet launched from the 15 is losing steam, the bolt gun capably takes over the baton. As shot distance increases, rapid follow-up shots become increasingly less important, for multiple reasons, so in that realm the bolt rifle's advantages outweighs its disadvantages most of the time... again, in my opinion.

During this past November and December, I killed exactly 25 hogs, ranging in size from about 40 lbs to 280 lbs. With a .300 Blackout...subsonic. All 25 died. The longest shot was 118 yards, and most were 50-75 yard shots. A .308 wouldn't have killed them any deader. Shot placement trumps everything else. These were all targets of opportunity while I was deer hunting; I wasn't specifically hog hunting. I took along my suppressed .300 BLK with my deer rifle because it offered the advantage of being quiet enough to zap pigs without potentially disturbing nearby deer unless they were standing really close to my pork victims. In the past, before I finally broke down and got the can, I was hesitant to take shots at pigs while deer hunting, for fear I might spook nearby deer and potentially miss an opportunity at an unseen buck. There were several occasions this fall when I killed a pig, and deer within sight only 75-100 yards from the pig didn't react to the shot. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2018 at 04:47
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Funny... I carry my suppressed .300BLK almost everywhere along with my "primary" rifle for hunting, now. 

Is there a "hogtacular" on the horizon?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2018 at 10:06
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I guess my issue in all this is AR10 is comparable in weight to my bolt guns. It loses a bit in velocity and wins a bit in rate if fire.

In the end, I am not willing to risk a lost animal because I could have humped 2 more pounds of bigger gun but chose not to. Taken to its logical conclusion, it becomes absurd, I know; but I am still of a mind that having as many bases covered as possible is a good thing - and the AR10 checks lots of boxes.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2018 at 12:07
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A deer rifle with an AR strapped to it seems a little bulky... 


This forum has no pot stirring emoticon.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2018 at 13:02
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

I guess my issue in all this is AR10 is comparable in weight to my bolt guns. It loses a bit in velocity and wins a bit in rate if fire.

In the end, I am not willing to risk a lost animal because I could have humped 2 more pounds of bigger gun but chose not to. Taken to its logical conclusion, it becomes absurd, I know; but I am still of a mind that having as many bases covered as possible is a good thing - and the AR10 checks lots of boxes.


My 308 Fix weighs 6.2 lbs empty.

I think you need a lighter bolt gun and a 6.5 Grendel AR.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2018 at 14:20
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Originally posted by urbaneruralite urbaneruralite wrote:

A deer rifle with an AR strapped to it seems a little bulky... 


This forum has no pot stirring emoticon.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2018 at 15:12
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Originally posted by urbaneruralite urbaneruralite wrote:

A deer rifle with an AR strapped to it seems a little bulky... 


Yes, pretty bulky...except when hunting out of a fixed box blind, as I was doing all season. Since I was returning to the blind every day, I just left my guns inside the blind for as long as I was there camping on the property. That way, carrying nothing to and from the blind in the dark was decidedly un-bulky.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2018 at 13:14
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"Unbulky"?? 

I expected so much more from a TAMU alum...Big Grin
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2018 at 13:42
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An unbulky 7 Winkle!💥
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2018 at 15:01
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I reserve the right to create my own words.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2018 at 16:31
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Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

I reserve the right to create my own words.



😂👍
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/29/2018 at 14:13
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Well I did look into the 458 Socom as an option, and may well be for me. I guess my concern with it would be how the lower would hold up, and would I need to have a different buffer and buffer spring? 
CMMG has some new one, and its beefier than standard from what I saw. 

There are some pretty cool vids on youtube of guys shooting 500+grain subsonic socoms and killing pigs and deer. I am sure they have a worse trajectory than a 30-30. 

Whatever it is, I need to be able to reload it so I can shoot it. 


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/29/2018 at 21:44
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Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by jonoMT jonoMT wrote:

Or, look into a 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC. Other than barrel and mags, you can go all AR-15 parts.


...and bolt (bolt only, not carrier).

Dang, I was wondering why it would never fire or cycle. Big Smile

Good catch.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/29/2018 at 21:47
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Originally posted by Lockjaw Lockjaw wrote:

Originally posted by jonoMT jonoMT wrote:

I have and hunt with one I built. To get it light cost some bucks. You might either consider buying one of the lighter off-the-shelf 16" variations. Or, look into a 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC. I went with the latter on an AR-15 platform build. With 130 gr Berger Hunter Classics it's good on antelope or deer out to 400+ yards and elk @ 200. Other than barrel and mags, you can go all AR-15 parts.

On a somewhat related note, if you have large hands consider the Ergo tactical deluxe grip. It really feels and controls much better for me.

Did you do Grendel or SPC? I looked at the Grendel option. 

Here is the thing. I have 308's already. I like the 6.5 creedmore. But don't want something that is 22 in barrel. I want it to be more compact. 

Mine's a 6.8 SPC. Either way would be good. One thing I dislike with .308 ARs is not having a forward assist. You (and hunting partners) will have to be comfortable with you carrying a chambered round...at least if you hunt mule deer or elk which seem to be able to hear a mouse pissing on cotton.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2018 at 05:40
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6.5 Grendel gives just about as good as the 308 at longer distances due to a better BC.  The idea that 308 is superior for this purpose is getting debunked.  At shorter distances the 308 has more energy which is natural given the difference in bullet mass.  But do you need all that mass?  Plenty of people are taking down elk no problem with Grendel.  That should about covers anyone's energy and hitting requirements.

There is a 556/6.5G/7.62 chart in here:

http://www.shootingtimes.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/11/files/6-5mm-grendel-the-round-the-military-ought-to-have/6-5mm-grendel_010.jpg


This is a 6.5G vs 6.8 SPC discussion
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?7716-Ballistics-charts&highlight=energy+chart


6.5G will give you more commonality of parts on the AR-15 chassis.


Ammo is scarcer, but getting better.  There are a ton of bullets out there with fantastic BC.  If you live near a Sportsmans Warehouse, there is a new line of Hornady called American Gunner they carry at a great price to give you brass for reloading.

If you want some interesting numbers, read the following thread.  There are some ballistic charts with other calibers.

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?15660-Why-I-Chose-to-Hunt-with-the-6-5-Grendel&highlight=energy+chart


I was thinking of slapping together a long distance 223 but instead decided to go Grendel after it was suggested here.  After researching for a while what I was finding is you get more fps, accuracy, energy and less drop and drift than the 223 and a log of other calibers.  You can get just as much fps and less drop and drift than a 308 and enough energy that it just doesnt matter. 

If the primary purpose is to kill things from 0-400 get the Grendel.  

And I already have an AR-10 TC.  No, I haven't assembled the Grendel yet, I'll update that thread when i do.






Edited by HKtoTikka - January/30/2018 at 06:09
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2018 at 10:17
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IMO the logic that the grendel is just as good for big game as a .308 falls apart.  The diff between the 556 and the grendel is nearly the same as the grendel to the .308.  In that logic the 556 is fine for elk to as it will kill one, so why not. 

I have killed my share of elk.  I have killed three with a .243.  two with a .308, two with a 7 mag and my dad one with my 300 wsm.   Exit wounds on the mags are softball sized in the rib cage.  The .308 was baseball sized and the .243 in my kills did not exit.  The first elk I killed was with a .243.  I hit him 7 times before he went down.  5 of them were in the rib shoulder area, one in the gut.  The only reason he went down is because I broke both of his shoulders, then ran up on him and shot him in the head.  He was moving I was near 300 yards away and shooting off hand, so getting a perfect shot was not happening.  

Sure the smaller calibers will kill them, but what if you hit a shoulder?  My dad shot an elk once with his .243.  He new he was undergunned so when he shot he fired two shots rapidly (semi auto).  The first one hit the shoulder bone and stopped, the second one was right behind the should and hit the vitals.  He was in heavy timber, so if he would have shot once he may not have got him.  Then would have had to track him and cause the animal unneeded pain. 

Smaller lighter bullets like a grendel and .243 will indeed kill an elk, but a larger heavier bullets do it better.  I have seen the differences personally and it is real.  All that said, I will likely hunt elk at some point with my 6.5 creedmoor, but I will be more picky about my shot placement vs my 7mag or 300 wsm. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2018 at 11:31
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Originally posted by Lockjaw Lockjaw wrote:

Well I did look into the 458 Socom as an option, and may well be for me. I guess my concern with it would be how the lower would hold up, and would I need to have a different buffer and buffer spring? 
CMMG has some new one, and its beefier than standard from what I saw. 

There are some pretty cool vids on youtube of guys shooting 500+grain subsonic socoms and killing pigs and deer. I am sure they have a worse trajectory than a 30-30. 

Whatever it is, I need to be able to reload it so I can shoot it. 



One of my ARs is chambered for 458 SOCOM.  It is all sorts of fun and, I suspect, is not lacking lethality within its envelope.

I plan to put together a suppressed SOCOM for shooting subsonic 500gr bullets.  I do not really have a need for one, but I think this is the one configuration Ted does not have, so I want it.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2018 at 13:22
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

I do not really have a need for one, but I think this is the one configuration Ted does not have, so I want it.


I don't have a Bugatti Veyron.

Just saying...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2018 at 14:04
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Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

IMO the logic that the grendel is just as good for big game as a .308 falls apart.  The diff between the 556 and the grendel is nearly the same as the grendel to the .308.  In that logic the 556 is fine for elk to as it will kill one, so why not. 

I have killed my share of elk.  I have killed three with a .243.  two with a .308, two with a 7 mag and my dad one with my 300 wsm.   Exit wounds on the mags are softball sized in the rib cage.  The .308 was baseball sized and the .243 in my kills did not exit.  The first elk I killed was with a .243.  I hit him 7 times before he went down.  5 of them were in the rib shoulder area, one in the gut.  The only reason he went down is because I broke both of his shoulders, then ran up on him and shot him in the head.  He was moving I was near 300 yards away and shooting off hand, so getting a perfect shot was not happening.  

Sure the smaller calibers will kill them, but what if you hit a shoulder?  My dad shot an elk once with his .243.  He new he was undergunned so when he shot he fired two shots rapidly (semi auto).  The first one hit the shoulder bone and stopped, the second one was right behind the should and hit the vitals.  He was in heavy timber, so if he would have shot once he may not have got him.  Then would have had to track him and cause the animal unneeded pain. 

Smaller lighter bullets like a grendel and .243 will indeed kill an elk, but a larger heavier bullets do it better.  I have seen the differences personally and it is real.  All that said, I will likely hunt elk at some point with my 6.5 creedmoor, but I will be more picky about my shot placement vs my 7mag or 300 wsm. 

The debate is not that the Grendel is just as good for big game animals as a .308 in all circumstances. The argument centers around 2 things: long range trajectory for target shooting, where the Grendel hangs with the .308, and effectiveness on game at short range up to maybe 300 yards, typical for how you'd use an AR in the first place. This is of course a comparison involving some tradeoffs, primarily a lighter, handier rifle in exchange for a slightly smaller wound channel. I very much disagree that the difference between a Grendel and .308 is remotely the same as between the Grendel and the 5.56. This due to bullets available and penetration potential for bullets typically used within AR cartridge length constraints. The sectional density and construction, as well as penetration of 120 - 140 gr 6.5 bullets compares very favorably to 150 - 165 gr bullets in .30 caliber, as long as you have reasonably high enough velocity to cause them to expand properly, which you would at short range. A 125ish gr 6.5 bullet will behave pretty much the same as a 150 gr .30 cal bullet of similar construction in terms of penetration and tissue damage. What the latter gains in diameter and mass, the former gains in sectional density, so they produce similar wound channels. On the other hand, .22 cal is lacking in bullets truly suitable for big game. At around 300 yards and under where velocities are still high enough to create a good wound channel, there isn't any animal that walks that will know the difference between a .308 and a 6.5 anything. If the critter is too large and tough for a Grendel at that distance, it's likewise too large and tough for a .308 with 165s as well. Personally, neither would be close to my first choice for elk sized game, but if they were all I had, I wouldn't stay home. For that matter, I'd never choose an AR for elk hunting anyway, and what a given AR is chambered in is way down on the list of reasons why. 

So with all things considered, given the specific limitations on shot distance and the size of game you'd typically hunt with an AR to begin with, the question then becomes why carry around 2-3 lbs extra weight and a less handy gun if you don't have to?
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