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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2018 at 15:17
supertool73 View Drop Down
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For reference I was specifically replying to this comment
Quote Plenty of people are taking down elk no problem with Grendel.
  Also the energy numbers of a 223 vs 6.5 vs 308 are spread pretty even. 

I know your preferences for the 7mm and 6.5 calibers Ted, and for the most part I agree with you. I love the 6.5 caliber, it is easily my fave.   But 123 grain grendel going maybe 2500 fps vs a 180 grain (we are talking elk here none of this 150 grain crap Wink) .308 going 2600 are not going to hit the elk the same.  That's nearly a 3rd more mass hitting him.  If you get a perfect shot then sure they will both penetrate to the vitals.  But that is not that often.  I have been hunting elk for 20+ years and not very often do you get a shot of an elk standing still.  Elk are almost always on the move, and often quickly on the move.  So that perfect vital shot does not happen very often.  You often get the shoulder or have to take a quartering shot and need lots of penetration.  Elk are big powerful animals they are not like a deer.  The elk I have killed have all been spike bulls too, so little boys compared to a full grown cow or big bull.  Big bulls are crazy big.  I have been within 20 to 30 yards yards of two big bulls fighting and they are huge.  A grendel just isn't enough gun.  And I agree a .308 is not optimal for one of them either, but its a lot better than a 6.5 grendel. 

Now it we get to 140+ grain bullets going 2600+ that would be better indeed.  But .30+ caliber (preferably magnums) are much better choices for those big boys.   FOr me I would absolutely carry the 2 extra lbs to hunt elk with the .308 vs a grendel.  No doubt about it. 

And, as you said for target shooting I would also pick the 6.5.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2018 at 17:52
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I agree with most of what you said. However, keep in mind a couple things here...
The comparison centers around these chamberings in an AR platform. Therefore, in .308, that means 2.8” max OAL and typically a short barrel. That pretty much negates the advantages of using 180s in .308. If we’re talking about what’s optimal for elk, especially if humping it in the steep high country they call home, an AR of any persuasion is a suboptimal tool from a weight:performance standpoint.

Secondly, “energy” is probably the most overrated metric as a measure of lethality. It over emphasizes velocity, it doesn’t take into account bullet construction, and it is a poor predictor of tissue damage. It’s amazing how much less “energy” is required the closer you get to vital organs and shoulders holding critters upright. Other than providing impressive sounding ft/lb numbers on paper, it has little value.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2018 at 20:13
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Lots of people carry around 11 and 12 lb rifles hunting. I say if you can’t, turn over that man card. Haha
Even us high land elk hunters do that often. Mountain rifles are more of a modern option. My 7mag BAR with scope fully loaded weights around 11.5lbs. I do prefer a light rifle, but have no issues hunting with and 11+ lb one. My tikka with suppressor weights near 11.5 as well. I hiked around for 3 days near 8 hours each this deer season with that tikka. I was just fine.

Also my reference to energy was simply staing the diff between 223, gendel and .308 are about equal spread. Nothing about shooting game specfically.

My 19” .308 will shoot 175s 2650. Even if you only get 2500 that 180 will have a big penetration advantage over a 123.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2018 at 20:35
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I love my 16” 308 AR, but pull out the 300WM when I want to anchor it.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2018 at 21:12
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Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

Lots of people carry around 11 and 12 lb rifles hunting. I say if you can’t, turn over that man card. Haha

Lots of people voted for Obama too.Wink

It's not an issue of "can't," it's an issue of "don't want to," especially when you consider all the other gear you typically haul around with you. Since I have more than 1 or 2 rifles to choose from, I'm not forced to make such concessions.Big Grin
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2018 at 21:18
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Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

 Even if you only get 2500 that 180 will have a big penetration advantage over a 123.

Actually, given similarly constructed bullets, you'd be surprised how little penetration difference there would be. The 180 will slightly out-penetrate the 123. What the 180 gains in momentum from mass, it loses in larger frontal area creating more drag. Heavy for caliber bullets get the best penetration. A 123 is moderately heavy for 6.5mm dia. Keep in mind that a 125 gr. 6.5mm and a 170 gr. .30 have exactly the same SD, so will penetrate to the same degree given equal construction.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2018 at 21:53
supertool73 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Keep in mind that a 125 gr. 6.5mm and a 170 gr. .30 have exactly the same SD, so will penetrate to the same degree given equal construction.


You had to go and bring actual terminal ballistics is into this. Fair enough, I shall bow out oh wise one as i can’t argue with that.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2018 at 22:00
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But my 30cal will create a larger permanat would channel. Thats has to count for something.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2018 at 06:24
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I am not a ballistics expert, I am a decent shot and a fairly good hunter, so there is a bit of voodoo in my calculations. And that voodoo tends toward larger diameter bullets to make big holes and grenade bones.
I will own a Grendel soon, if only because you convinced me I need to shelve the 18” 223 mid-range gun for a little more power, that is how my inclinations tend: replace less powerful gun with more powerful gun.

To that end, the AR10 is going nowhere, but if anyone needs a DD 18” AR15 upper, I have one about to go into storage.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2018 at 14:26
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I think out of nine elk I've shot, including a large bull, with a .308 I only had one cow that took just a single shot to down. Another really gave me some trouble when I used the wrong bullet (a 175-gr FMJ) from accidentally picking up the wrong box of handloads to bring along. I had to track her for half a mile and then watch her still jump a fence after the second round penetrated right behind the shoulder. That left me deboning an elk while trespassing. All I can say to that, is if I'd gotten in trouble at least I didn't waste a game animal. I found that second round almost entirely intact right inside the opposite shoulder.

I've had much better results with Berger 165-gr Classic Hunters loaded to 2.8 OAL. But still those last three elk each took a second shot. In each case the initial shot was over 200 yards. I might hunt elk with the 6.8 SPC, but won't take a shot over 200. Now that I have the 8.5 lb fully loaded/scoped .308 AR why would I?

I don't mind some extra weight, but I do hate excessive barrel length. Suppressed, that rifle will end up being 21.5" on the front end and that's just about where my Tikka is. Any longer and you start hitting noisy twigs or can't get the rifle up as fast.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2018 at 16:48
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A note for all the Sig 516/716 owners that hate that stubby front rail: the Lancer carbon fiber extended looks to be an awesome add-on.  Mine took 10 minutes to install, and another 2 to go back and lok-tite everything up.  It adds several inches to top and bottom, and adds an ounce or 2 - which is easy for me to justify.

I'm getting a Grendel, for sure, but the 308 AR will still be my go-to stalking gun.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2018 at 17:43
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Look up tromix .375 socom.  It has my interest. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2018 at 11:46
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I saw that. And I like it, but.... what I saw showed only abut 75 out there. 

I wish I could have my cake and eat it too. They make an AR10 in 7mm WSM? I mean dang. 

I do like the idea of the 458 socom for around where I hunt. Thick brush and what not. 

Ar10 wouldn't scare me for Elk, at least second shot would be quick. I watched a youtube of a girl shooting a bedded elk, I think with a 6.5 grendel, at fairly long range, and she had to shoot it about 5 times. 

But down here, it could be a good option too. 
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