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Calling all shooters

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/10/2008 at 09:20
pyro6999 View Drop Down
Optics Retard
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OT TITAN

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maybe instead of going to south salt lake you should go to west valley or west jordan
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/10/2008 at 09:32
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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most of the subject, so far, has dealt with strategy (trajedy for some), with some tactics thrown in. Fortress, rhodesian (run toward) , rabbit (run away). "Quartering" is a tactical manuever (used in martial arts) or technique, called flanking by military types, used to break into the defensive perimeter once distancing has been established. Its effectiveness is enhanced by a parry, fake, or draw. (bruce lee Jeet-kun do-and many others). A tactical method, (undercut, left hook, roundhouse, speed rock) should not be substituted for a strategy, and a strategy will never win a fight.

If you pull up to a stop sign and 3 other cars pull up at the same time, one of the cars will take off first- these are fast starters, 2 off the others will be close but will see what the others will do. you are the decision maker watching- this is a Nash equil. from Game theortic modeling, a branch of math. that deals with things such as why countries with limited GNP and only one or two items for export impose trade sanctions.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/10/2008 at 09:37
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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I would add that it also works for calculating matriculation rates, such as how many soldiers it takes to win a battle, based on self inflicted wounds, awol, insubordination, etc. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2008 at 10:33
BlackSwan View Drop Down
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Updated  basic pistol skills for personal defense. No one has argued vs my proposed times:

    1. First cold shot from concealment - 1.2 sec or less / center hit out to 10 paces
    2. "Speed rock" at 5 paces body hits x2 in 1.2 sec (means # 1 should be .8 or so)
    3. Bill drill at 10 paces in 2.5 sec. from exposed draw. 6 hits
    4. Lowlight hits with flashlight use 60%
    5. Speed reload in 2.5 sec from belt pouch.
    6. Palm drills, (transferring the gun back and forth between hands)

     7. Reverse slide cocking (holding the slide fixed against something like the leg to cock it with one hand)

     8. Shooting at least 25% of practice rounds left handed. This includes using the left    eye, and magazine changes using the weak hand

     9. Magazine changes using one hand.

 

 

Proposed basic shotgun skills for personal defense:

1.      familiarity with manual-of-arms for shotgun 870 vs benelli etc

2.      6 shots on steel plates at 15 yd 3 sec

3.      single reload from belt or side saddle 3 sec

4.      silent movement indoors in low ready position

5.      running outdoors – shooting on run

6.      use of sling / use of weapon mounted light/discipline

7.      transition to pistol

8.      slug shot a 100 yd on 18 inch steel plate.

You shot gunners need to step up !

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2008 at 22:09
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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the times you suggest would be master class, roughly, and would eliminate some of the need for movement, sense the handgun would be more efficient to 25-50 yds than say a shotgun, or carbine.  I've seen the bill drill done with .6 out and .1 sec splits. or about 1.4 secs. for master and grand master shooters. so 2.5 to 3.0 would be a reasonable goal. gunsite instructors tend to run about class B shooters. (exceptions I'm sure).
 I would like to suggest that the actual mechanical similarities between hand gun and defensive shotgun be reviewed. If a set of hand manuvers that can be used between the two exist, such that a new set of skills not be needed or relearned.
to start with of course)
flash sight picture.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2008 at 22:19
BlackSwan View Drop Down
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So - restate my standards with what you think are basics - and eliminate what needs to be removed from the pistol standards for shotgun. I invite you to edit. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2008 at 22:23
BlackSwan View Drop Down
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If I could get my hands on a shotgun inside 25 yards I would use that over the handgun. Depending on load and conditions.
So you disagree that the handgun is just a tool to fight to your long gun?

BlackSwan
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/13/2008 at 08:59
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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I'd put the concealed shot at about 2.5 sec for the average proficient shooter
and a speed rock at 1.5 to 1.8 for the average with an ideal holster
it would depend on the immediacy of the moment-- if one has the time or the logistics to fight towards a shotgun, then one has time just to get the hell out of there. to fight towards a better weapon assumes disengagement , then re-engagement- if the object of the re-engagement is worth it-lots of combinations, then one gets into why a shotgun why not just a select fire weapon, or maybe an rpg (my choice).
standing and shooting with a handgun in action shooting is much different than NRA style target shooting. I would rather do a "flying squirrel" (go prone) with the handgun which can be very accurate to 50 yds. than mentally recalculate a different tactical approach.
note to edit in required shooting skills
prone head shots at 25 thru 50 yds.
a zone hits from kneeling at 25 yds.
 
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