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Topic ClosedClarity vs. Magnification for 2000 meters

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/26/2019 at 10:07
Multiple hits on a 12x18" plate at 1800m with an 8 or 9x?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/26/2019 at 10:20
Originally posted by yldouright yldouright wrote:

@Rancid Coolaid
Of all the participants here you have been the most candid and I appreciate that but please understand I wasn't being evasive when stating my formula would be meaningless to you. The round and barrel interact in very complex ways that you need completely understand to come up with a formula and that formula will be specific to your platform only.
RC is talking about a general formula, you are talking about a fine tuning of the formula.

I'm getting to the point that I want to raise a flag here.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/26/2019 at 10:29
Originally posted by yldouright yldouright wrote:



Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

If a hunter cannot do that in a moment he has no business shooting long range period.
Rightly said so then the next question becomes, is it quicker to sight with a side view or reset your magnification? When I do long range hunting on game, I wait for my shot from a fixed position that sees a typical path of a herd. Deer, elk, antleope, etc. are stunningly aware of their environment so you need an element of luck along with craftiness to get a close shot at them. They tend to be more relaxed and still when you are >400 meters from them. That's how I do it because of my relatively good long range proficiency. Everyone has their style and its whatever works for you.




I am still trying to convince/picture myself how I would like having two optics better than a variable scope.  I am really struggling with it.  If you are stalk hunting, you will want the mag of your scope turned all the way down to begin with.  At least that should be the case. 

If you are sitting somewhere glassing and you see game 400+ yards out then agreed, you will possibly/likely have time to turn the mag up to take a longer shot.  But even if you don't shooting at an animal at 400 yards on 3x is not that bad. 

I think a lot of this will also very much depend upon the style of hunting a person does as well as where they hunt.  In Utah, the places I hunt, I could easily have a 1000 yard shot and a 25 yard shot and everywhere in between.  I could be in open valleys and minutes later be in thick Aspen tree where visibility in less than 30 yards.  I think you could hunt those areas with what you are suggesting.  Having two separate optics just doubles your chance of a mess up IMO.

Anyway, I do hope you find your niche and can get some scopes sold.  Having more and more options is a great thing.  I am not sure it is something I would want, but others may think differently.  I just can't convince myself of the benefits. 

I seem to recall you said it would weight 28oz too.  That is a heavy scope IMO.  This goes back again though to the 1500 yard gun though.  A gun capable of making a shot like that will likely be a heavy rifle, so maybe it won't matter.  But lots of hunter want their hunting system to weight less these days.  My latest hunting system weights 7 lbs fully loaded out.  So a nearly 2lb scope would ruin that.  But its not intended to shoot game past 500 yards either, so there is that. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/26/2019 at 11:04
Koshkin isn't one to tute his own horn much, but he has probably forgotten more about optics than most people will ever know; so belittling a widely accepted expert in his field - especially considering you freely admit this isn't your field - won't gain much respect or agreement.

Next, I've done a fair bit of reloading, and still don't believe a 2200FPS round will still be supersonic beyond 1500 yards, well, maybe on a 15,000 foot mountain range. I might be wrong, I've been wrong before. If you wish to post data tables, please be specific on the variables that went in to make the table.

I also noted, on another forum, that you said you'd never shot at 2000, never had a hit beyond 1750, and had never killed game beyond 800. You might want to listen when you have a host of hunters and long range marksmen comment on your product, especially when several have successfully accomplished a task at which you failed.

Or don't.

As for bias against fixed, you are missing the obvious - and oft stated - that SWFA's fixed is the gold standard for modest priced, fixed powered scopes. People absolutely love the 10X models because they are very reliable and very repeatable; this isn't about trashing fixed. Almost everyone sounding off thus far owns at least one SWFA fixed. All that said, SWFA has a stellar reputation for quality and service - that is earned. Your theoretical scope has no physicality, no one has seen or touched it (not here anyway) and all we have are vague commitments on a superior product.

I'll be stepping away from this thread now. It is a time sinkhole. And doesn't seem to be going anywhere I care to be.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/26/2019 at 11:31
Originally posted by yldouright yldouright wrote:

@koshkin
That's a rather bold determination from someone who couldn't explain why the optics have gotten so much better since 2016. You sound like you fear me, it's very unbecoming in a man who is confident in themselves.

 
Holy Hell, can't say I've laughed at such a notion in quite a while. 
 
Koshkin if welcomed into more optics factories than all us, his reputation is impeccable when it comes to being honest and scientific in his observations and methods.  You want someone to endorse an optic that will cause others to break their wallets out, Koshkin's that guy.  Many of us won't accept new products to the market without some sort of input from him due to the respect he commands from us.  He's openly invited to all the trade shows dealing with optical devises and spends more time behind glass than probably all us combined. 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/26/2019 at 12:06
Originally posted by yldouright yldouright wrote:


I just wasnt to make a comment about product/forum bias. If SWFA was funding this forum prior to their introducing variable scopes, how many long timers here now critical of fixed power defended them in the past against the variable magnification competetion? Shall we pull up the quotes to see, Ilya?

Sir, you are either taking the comments provided totally out of context or you are being deliberately obtuse. Nobody is being "critical of fixed power" in general; in fact quite the opposite. Most of us have some fixed power scopes among our respective collections. They have their place and are sometimes a viable option. 

Likewise, nobody is basing their opinions on what SWFA offers or doesn't offer. We are simply saying we don't believe your idea is a good fit for the specific criteria you describe in your posts. This is what is known as an "opinion," and opinions and preferences drive buying decisions. We are each experts in our own opinions and preferences.

Never mind the ridiculous 2000m capability proposed in the thread title...for super LR shooting and hunting where dialing dope and extreme precision in equipment is a necessity, you're dealing with a customer base whose gear choices are not in sync with the product being proposed. The savvy shooter who pursues this game has already spent a significant amount of money on his rifle and is likely to follow suit with optics. There are so many optically excellent variable scopes with excellent mechanical precision available that the scope you propose will likely not sell well enough to justify the expense and effort to produce it. That too is an opinion. It is our honest collective opinion that the sales volume for the scope you propose will be extremely low, and we say this based on ample evidence of what is currently available and the product decisions existing manufacturers who have been in business for many decades have already made. Optics manufacturers are not in the business of losing money. If there was a niche that was being neglected, some manufacturer would've likely filled it by now. 

Speaking for myself, I like all sorts of products that don't sell well, so what I like and would personally buy and what I would advise someone to produce to try to be profitable are often two totally different things. I love compact mid range variable scopes with 32 and 36mm objectives and very high end scopes specifically designed for rimfires, but obviously those don't sell well because every manufacturer who produces same doesn't have it in their lineup for very long before discontinuing them. I loved the Kahles 2-7X36 in all its iterations, especially the dedicated rimfire version, and my all time favorite scopes that Zeiss ever made were the 3-9X36 Diavari-C and the fixed 4X Conquest rimfire. Obviously I was among a tiny minority, as those scopes had about the same lifespan as the Mayfly.

We simply do not think your product idea has market viability based on other products that are currently available, and most here are uninterested in buying the product you've described, for the reasons already given. The existing 6X and 10X fixed scopes fill their required niches well, and there are some very good options available in those magnifications, so we cannot see the appeal of a fixed 9X regardless of price or quality level. Right, wrong, or indifferent, it doesn't matter what virtues your proposed product would possess; it only matters whether the thing would sell. If it doesn't, it isn't worth pursuing. This isn't a personal attack on you; it's honest feedback. You asked for feedback and received it. When the input received wasn't what you hoped, you proceeded to tell us all that we were wrong, then got bent out of shape and decided to beat the ever-loving hell outta the dead horse. Free market competition is a great thing, and we all want new companies to develop better mousetraps. It drives innovation, and we all win when companies innovate. I hope you are successful with your pursuits, but I believe your efforts will ultimately prove futile. One thing that is immediately apparent is you could certainly learn a few lessons on how to communicate and market to your core audience and learn to accept criticism.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/26/2019 at 14:06
Fallacy associated with rebuttal #1: your experience with variables is a universal experience. It should be obvious why this is not true, but you seem welded to your experience while stating unilaterally that you don't understand why others aren't as excited. That others aren't excited would lead to most people asking "why" - and actually listening to the answers.
Are you falling back exclusively on price? Because, as Koshkin said, get a Tangent Theta: done. Why do I need you?
Fallacy associated with rebuttal #2: Yours is a confirmation bias, which is amusing since it is only your confirmation that is the foundation for the bias. An expert with lots of scope design/manufacturing/commercializing experience has offered constructive criticism and evaluation, and you dismissed and belittled him. I'm glad you are excited about your scope!
#3 not a bias or fallacy, just a circular logic trap: mine is newer therefore better, and it is better because it is newer.

Lastly, my 10X and 3-9X have never had issues with bottoming out elevation, probably because I don't hunt at 2000 yards. Likewise, if a scope was sold with a spec of 300 MOA of adjustment, I wouldn't care, I don't need it.

Many here shoot long range, and I have often said my best shooting is at 15X or so, regardless of what the scope can do. I simply shooter better at 15X with most optics than I do at 20X with any optic. It has not been my experience that dropping to 8X makes things even better, for me it does not.

No one is discouraging you from making the scope, we are simply telling you that, even if you do what you say you can - though that part is super fuzzy still - we don't want your scope with your specs, for use with your specified application. That you know nothing about scope manufacturing doesn't bolster your case much. You do realize that when people say, "you can do anything you set your mind to", it isn't true, right? That is what people tell stupid people to help them at least try, rather than sit around eating crayons and licking windows all day.

You cannot do something simply because you really want to do it, that isn't how the universe works.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/26/2019 at 14:07
You keep talking about 2000 meter shots.  Its been said before, but even with targets, hardly no one does that.  It is nearly impossible to do consistently and requires a skill level that most shooters will never dream to achieve.  I honestly think it is crazy to be marketing a 8x scope to shooters for a 2000 yard shot.  With a 30 cal bullet, you are going to need a 300 Norma mag, or a 300 ultra mag to do it.  and lots and lots of shooting. 

Why not focus on something more realistic.  1000 meter shot.  That is something that most rifles are capable of actually doing.  Even decent off the shelf hunting rifles can make that shot these days with decent consistency. You are trying to sell a scope to something maybe 1/4% of shooters actually do. 

Most people who shoot precision rifles know, once you get past 500 yards things start to get harder and you have to learn to properly read the wind.  Bigger faster calibers help, but its still hard.  2000 yards is just crazy IMO.   
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/26/2019 at 14:24
Not too bad of a brief read fro OL


I'm not much of a long range shooter, but have done so. But I do have some top tier Zeiss, Kahles, Leica and and Steiner scopes. I can tell you that 8, 9, or 10X would simply not work for me at those ranges, should I chose.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/26/2019 at 14:51
Originally posted by yldouright yldouright wrote:

 

argument #1 - no one will want a fixed scope when variables can do the job better
rebuttal - I've been behind some of the newish variables (sightron, Athlon, etc.) and there is still color aberration and other optical deficiencies at the adjustment extremes. They are leaps better than what was around 10 years ago at these prices but still not up to first tier glass.

 
These are not optics that you will see on the majority of weapon systems out there attempting longer shots.  Sightron and Athlon are not "top tier" And we are talking about needing top tier equipment here. Just because you looked through those doesn't mean you'd see the same issues on a S&B, or TT, or even March
 
Originally posted by yldouright yldouright wrote:

argument #2 - you don't know enough to do better than what's currently available
rebuttal - possibly true but I learn fast and I can hire people if I get over my head and besides this, all I need to know is if the use case would be compelling IF I can deliver to outlined spec. The use case I've outlined suits my hunting style and I don't believe I'm unconventional so I can't understand why others wouldn't be as excited about what I plan to offer as I am.
 
By far you are few and far between if you think hunters would want a fixed 8X with offset laser red dot. 
 

Originally posted by yldouright yldouright wrote:

Let's be honest, if SWFA addressed their current 10x issues, increased its adjustment range and got a better picture wouldn't you be on board to get one at $1,000? I am of the opinion that even for 2,000 meter target shooting, a steadier, sharper and slightly smaller sight picture would be a better use case and most did agree with this premise so explain to me where the logic is when discouraging me to develop this scope?.
 
What issues? There are not issues that need addresses that would warrant a $600 -$700 price increase from the classic line or even the few hundred from the HD line. I've never heard of someone running out of adjustment on a SS scope when paired property with a canted base correctly.  They have more than enough adjustment for 99.9% of the armed public. The folks that would need or use a SS for 2000M would simply be doing so for chits and giggles, meaning they just want to try it. But someone who is equipping themselves for that shooting won't choose the SS to begin with, nor any other fixed I dare say.  
 
These fixed SS scopes do the job they are built for exceptionally well and a price no company can compete with for what you get. PERIOD.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/26/2019 at 17:01
I get the joy of making long shots.  But an elk vital area is about 15".  Can you honestly say you can consistently shoot 15" groups at 1500 yards and beyond?

This is the part that pisses me off about long range hunting.  What happens when you gut shoot, or just shoot that elk in the leg or flank.  By the time you get to where it was 1500 yards later, your chances of catching up to it are going to be much less.  So now you have a hurt wounded elk suffering just so you could try an prove that you could kill something at 1500 yards. 

Its wrong for 99% of shooters to even think its okay to shoot at animals that far away.  Chances are you will miss, but the chance of wounding it are much higher than a kill shot. 

Just because a guy has shot a few rounds at a target on a range 1500 yards away and made a few hits doesn't qualify him to shoot at an animal at that distance. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/26/2019 at 17:07
Words have meaning: it is a problem for us to dwell on that?

And the 2 scopes mentioned cost literally multiples of the scope you are saying they beat optically. And what of the turrets and reticle on your scope, the better be awesome if we'll be spinning up to 2000 meters.
IOR has always had nice glass, their problems have been everything else about the scope. And I do mean everything.

I guess the thing I keep coming back to is the simple fact that I can run a $4000 long range scope - at range - and don't choose 8X for a long range view. You assert that you can change my mind with an inexpensive scope, but haven't explained how. To say I am skeptical would be an understatement. If you are saying your 8X for a few hundred dollars will outperform my TT3-15M set at 8X, that's a claim that conventional wisdom tells me will be rejected in time. I'll run them side-by-side, sure, send me one. Convince me.

Yes, there are more shooters, people are getting into it. I haven't seen quite as much interest at long range and less at extreme long range 9which, I would call 2000 meters extreme long range), probably because several tangential skills matter significantly, and there is no cheap ELR gear.

I wish you all the best, and will happily put your scope side-by-side with several top tier scopes and compare them.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/26/2019 at 18:12
"Overall, IF I can deliver what I am suggesting I will be" .... a waste of time and effort.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/26/2019 at 19:41
It will have some value after you accomplish all that. Prior to verifiably  accomolishing all that, it has none.

So stop posting here and get to work.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/26/2019 at 19:47
1.  Posers might not buy it because it will be fixed power and no military units at this point don’t use fixed power optics any more.

2.  I honestly don’t think you sre going to be able to convince people that a fixed scope is somehow going to give them a better view. 

3. I am a prepper. I want something that does multiple things well. As a prepper my choice of a fixed power scope (which i have on three) on my rifle are 3x and 4x scopes. Those can be used up close pretty well and at distance pretty well. An 8x scope will suck up close. So i don’t think a prepper will buy into that. 

4.  Maybe. But there are a lot of pretty good variable tactical scopes under $1000 these days that are pretty nice optics.  You will be competeing with those. 

5. Quit talking about lasers. Red dots dude. Red dots. ;)
I think that will be a hard sell, but you may find some that will buy into it. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/26/2019 at 20:53
Expecting different results/ answers for the same questions...... seems like that's the definition of something.....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/26/2019 at 21:02
Originally posted by yldouright yldouright wrote:

but I learn fast and

I beg to differ.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/27/2019 at 06:24
Yldouright—

I believe this thread has run its course, as your continued rebuttals explaining why we are all wrong obviously aren’t swaying anyone’s opinions. You asked for feedback and got it. But that was only a semantic exercise, as you knew going in these were rhetorical questions. You knew all the answers already and didn’t need our advice, as we’ve all been doing it wrong for many years. We are obviously all market outliers, not at all representative of the real shooting community. That being the case, you should ignore our input, go to work on your project post haste and laugh all the way to the bank while we languish in our ignorance.

Good luck!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/27/2019 at 09:01
I think we need to let him round out the awesomeness that will be his fixed 9X scope. When he tells us about the turrets, the reticle, whether it will have parallax adjustment (or, if fixed, at what it will be fixed); once we have the additional details, it might be so great that we all send him a blank check and say, "write in whatever number you want, I will pay it, I must have this scope."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/27/2019 at 12:42
As this thread has gotten some good attention - and some of it for all the wrong reasons - I wish to take advantage of its fame (and dying original topic) to open a genuine and possibly useful line of inquiry.

From the data table posted repeatedly and the link to the superbullet with a G1 of 0.888 @2500FPS, I have started thinking more about ballistics and managing the physics rather than trying to beat them.
This all stems first from the absurdity that a 30-cal round can mimic 338LM ballistics, and moves on to a 2600FPS 30-cal round with a 0.888 BC still being supersonic beyond 1500 yards.

The bullet maker specifies that the bullet has a G1 of 0.888 @2500FPS - and that second part is paramount. The whole discussion was around putting accurate rounds on target at 2000 yards (or meters, but I'll stick with yards, since people comprehend that distance better - at least I do.)

So, let's assume the actual G1 is 0.888, but below 2500FPS - which, for a round that starts at 2600 FPS is probably around the 100 yard point in its flight - the real-world BC is lower, and dropping with every yard of flight. Yes, the initial BC holds for short bullet flights and therefore yields accurate data tables; however, this specific example - which is, admittedly, absurd - is that 0.888 is constant through to target, which has passed through the very unstable trans-sonic phase of flight.

All of that to say this: some calibers/bullets/circumstances can put accurate rounds on target at distances greater than a mile, but most cannot. I know the 308 well, I shot it for many, many years. Moreover, I know the 300WM even better, and have launched thousands of 208 Amax projectiles from a few different rifles (and killed more than a few animals with a hot 208), and it just doesn't work the way this thread has portrayed it.

For clarity: a higher BC projectile fired at the same velocity as a lower BC projectile will have a higher BC throughout its stable flight than will the lower BC projectile. So starting with a high BC projectile for long range shots is indeed good. But, the G1 specified "@2500 FPS" will be grossly wrong for extended flights that end with the projectile moving through trans-sonic flight.
That last example of using the 0.888 with a projectile starting at 2200 FPs will be a train-wreck of a data table. How far off would need to be experimentally derived; but my guess is, given several comments on this thread, there is far more data tabling happening than there is long range shooting to verify.

I love the idea of a ultra-high BC round that can accurately place hits at extreme long range, that is part of why I love my 243AI so much; but there are limits to what can be accomplished, even when one is certain more is possible.

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