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Flyer shot mystery....

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anweis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote anweis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/26/2019 at 06:58
I get what you describe usually for two reasons: 
1. The barrel is not foul enough. Even my best rifles need more than 10 shots to shoot well, sometimes 20.
2. My handloads have too much  or not enough powder.

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koshkin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/26/2019 at 11:17
You need to figure out if it is always the same shot, i.e. shot #3 or of it can be any one of the three.

I have seen this stuff happen because the barrel got warmer and had an effect on the mating between the barrel and front of the receiver.

I have also seen this stuff be a shooter issue, which can also be remarkably consistent.

ILya
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/26/2019 at 11:57
That's the problem with making generalizations about "solving the mystery" of group flyers. It can be caused by any number of factors, and each marriage of barreled action, stock, optics, mounts, ammo, and shooter used can have its own unique issues that generate flyers entirely different from the next. You just have to drill down and isolate one variable at a time until you find out what the source of the problem is. Anything that is shifting position inconsistently in mating parts during the shot sequence will cause a flyer. Ammo that isn't well tuned to work with the rifle's natural frequency can cause flyers, even if the load itself is extremely consistent in velocity, OAL, and component dimensions from round to round and produces very low SD & ES. The barrel oscillates in kind of a sine wave during the shot. If bullets are exiting the muzzle during rapid changes of direction during that oscillation, you will have flyers, even if the load itself is very consistent. If the shooter has developed any bad habits in shooting form that occurs frequently, you will likely get repetitive flyers.
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.
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8shots View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8shots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/27/2019 at 01:41
Rifledude, I agree with you that there are many reasons, real or imaginary, for a once off flyer.
However, the mystery is in a consistent flyer. One of our respected hunters also used a 300H&H for many years. He also wrote about the peculiar habit of his rifle to throw one in 5 shots.

Hence my original point: Has anyone experienced this and fixed it?

So if the majority says : yes we fixed it, it was x, y or z with the rifle, then I have a direction to take. Or if the majority said it was p, q or r with reloading, bullets etc it would point me in a different direction.
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Sgt. D View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sgt. D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/27/2019 at 08:59
My most common fix is to rebed (about 60%). Then about half of those that bedding didn't help only got results after changing the stock or chassis. The most desperate fix after all else failed was to take a half to an inch of the barrel and recrown. I've had two that nothing helped and would have rebarreled but the customer didn't want to go there.
Bedding is not simple but, after all the basics have been confirmed (clear free float, solid bed or V-block seat, everything is tightened properly) bedding is usually the most effective fix. Then you have the variable of "do I bed the length of the receiver or just the pillar bed. That is just a matter of preference.
But one thing I have learned is to have another competent marksman shoot the rifle to make sure it is not me or the customer. One I recently finished had me baffled. I fully expected it to shoot half moa or better but it just wouldn't. I went back over it point by point to see if I had anything out of spec. I had three people besides myself shoot it and the same result. About to the point of going to another barrel We let a sleeper new to the group shoot it and there it was. 1 3/4 group at 400yds (consistently). I realized that the three of us had gotten frustrated and were over controlling and fighting the rifle. He came in with no history of the rifle and shot lose grip, rifle laying on point and load the trigger. After that we all got good results with the rifle.
Getting frustrated I had let slip one of the things I stress repeatedly to those who I shoot with. If you have to torque or push the rifle to be on target you are fighting the rifle. Always do whatever you need to, to have the sights lay or rest on target. If you have to twist, push or pull the rifle then you are introducing heart beat, breathing and all kinds of negative effects into the shot. And with those negatives you will not know what the rifle is capable of. I have built my own shooting benches in the past to help determine what a rifle is doing. I am about to build another to better accomplish this having seen things that need to be changed.
A proper shooting bench needs to be heavy built, adjustable at the feet, have a swivel rifle seating platform with the forward rest right at or slightly rear of the barrel lug. With a taper box rest for the butt with a recoil dampener and the means to strap it down across the forward scope ring. The forward rest needs to be adjustable for elevation but has to be very sturdy and not shift or get loose after each shot. A modified Lead sled is a good possibility.


Edited by Sgt. D - June/27/2019 at 09:05
Take care of Soldiers, Show em how its done and do it with em, Run to the Fight & and hold your ground! I die my men go home! If you're a NCO and this ain't you. GET OUT! GOD BLESS AMERICA!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/27/2019 at 09:08
I’ve never had a rifle that produced a flyer that was consistently in the same location and distance relative to a typical shot group. Flyers I’ve experienced were always random in occurrence and dispersion.

The first thing I would try is to have another experienced shooter fire a series of groups and see if the same flyer tendencies occur, in the same general location and magnitude. Generally in any shooting, repetitive flyers in the same location away from groups are a result of the shooter’s interaction with the gun; periodic habits in shooting form that have developed subconsciously over time. Examples: inconsistencies in trigger contact and press, inconsistencies in grip, inconsistencies in breathing control as the shot breaks, inconsistencies in forend contact as the shot breaks. I’m not saying any of the above is the source of your flyers, just that consistent flyers are typically shooter-induced. Mechanically-induced flyers tend to be randomly dispersed.
Ted


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SEMO Shooter View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SEMO Shooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/27/2019 at 10:53
I prefer to shoot dot drills instead of groups.  I am bad about pulling the last shot of a 5 shot group.  When I shoot dot drills that doesn't happen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sgt. D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/27/2019 at 11:24
Discipline!!      Discipline was the thing! 
 
Take care of Soldiers, Show em how its done and do it with em, Run to the Fight & and hold your ground! I die my men go home! If you're a NCO and this ain't you. GET OUT! GOD BLESS AMERICA!
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tejas View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/27/2019 at 12:06
I’d change my technique first, just to eliminate myself as the problem. Fire a few rounds to warm up and foul your barrel. As your shooting groups, move your rifle off the bag or rest after each shot and reset. That will force you to get your body and the rifle back into your preferred position, get your cheek weld back and so forth. Just sitting there firing groups may cause you to shift slightly from the recoil or unknowingly change positions. Just a thought. It’s something you can try to eliminate one possibly and it’s cheap or free. 
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