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Calling all shooters

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supertool73 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/09/2008 at 14:00
I have a friend that bought both versions of the judge because he thought to that it would be the greatest defensive handgun you could get.  He was very disappointed as to the pattern of the shotgun blast.  He tried every different load he could get and in the end he sold both of them.  He sent me some pics and even at 5 to 10 paces the spread was huge completely going off the silhouette targets.  Even the buckshot patterns were all over the place and had no consistency.  In his case the shorter barrel shot the smallest and most consistent pattern.  I think it sounds like a great idea but in his case it did not perform to his wants and needs. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/09/2008 at 15:18
Mr. Clifford and supertool, good input. I will definitely shoot my friend's Judge before considering a purchase.   Really does SOUND like a good idea, though.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tahqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/09/2008 at 17:10
I have shot .410 a bunch out of a Contender. I think the Judge is a very bad idea for a defensive hand gun.
If you have to have a really short barreled scatter gun, by a Topper 12 or 20 ga. and cut it off at both ends.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BeltFed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/09/2008 at 17:13
As to the Judge, I learned a long time ago that shot shells do not performe well in any rifled arm. The rifling acts as a centrafuge on the shot, and it spreads in a circular pattern very rapidly. Short barrels work best but still have the same effect. Smooth bore pistols are controlled under the NFA as any other weapon.
What level of training do you wish to achieve? What skill level do you want ? How much experence do you need? How much are you willing to practice your learned skills? How easy was it to learn your skills etc.. No matter how bad of a S.O.B. you are there is always somebody thats badder. No matter how bad that S.O.B. is, if you play your cards right you can win.
The discussion here are topics that instructors in law enforcement have been considering for decades. Just narrowing the scope to the self defense handgun still does not narrow the scope of the discussion because the same emotions envolved in a fist fight are envolved in a gun fight. As your stress level goes up your motor skills go down. Training, practice, experience, and mental attitude are factors that help overcome a potential loss of skills.
Does the average citizen need the same survival skills that a officer patroling the meanest beat in the big city needs? He might! Who knows?
Standing on a flat range shooting at paper targets will not prepare you for the fight for your life, nor will shooting any type of combat match, but it is part of the process. Force on force training is excellent training but only after you have learned the tactics to survive and the skills to competently use your weapon. Force on force training reinforces what tactics work and what poor tactics and mistakes can cost. Your attitude and mental preparedness also effect your survival (I will survive no matter what) if your caught flat footed and unprepared it's difficult to out draw the other guys trigger pull, and giving up means you die. You need to know what you can and can't do and act accordingly.
The better prepared you are the lower your stress level. The lower your stress level the better your performance. The better you perform the better your chances of survival.
I could give all kinds of examples, but I'm tired of having diarrea of the key board.
Never stop  the learning.
Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/09/2008 at 18:01
Excellent.   What you said is that as long as you have the proper mental attitude all training is positive...once again, the thought processes are what "make the fight" and cause training to be effective.

Years ago, as a student of physical and mental training, I read a report years ago about an experimental Soviet training program for the Olympics...info was released shortly after the "Wall" came down . They separated into categories of 1) all physical training in the sport of competition, 2) 25% visualization/75%physical training, 3)50/50, 4) 75% visualization, 25% physical, 5 100% visualization in the sport of competition and only strength/speed/conditioning training otherwise. Cat 1 won NO gold medals, Cat 2 won some of all medals, Cat 3 won more gold and some of all, Cat 4 EVERYONE won a gold, Cat 5 SOME won gold. Awesome when one thinks about it. After this study, they began to concentrate on visualization and dominated the Olympics in gymnastics, weightlifting, etc.   One must SEE in his mind the situation, the reaction, the performance, the outcome and believe in supremacy. What has since been shown is that when one concentrates, visualizes oneself performing physical actions with perfection, all the synapses involved in the physical performance of that action are "fired", therefore creating "perfect" muscle memory. Boiled down to the essence, that is what it is all about. Action becomes reaction, but since the mind is not limited by physical limits, one can visualize perfect actions and outcomes. A great advantage.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BlackSwan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/09/2008 at 21:35
There are portions of the brain which store experiences as real - so beware what you consume from Hollywood - the stat is out there that only about 37% of handgun confrontations end in a death - what happens in between the shooting and the "not dying"? Both - or several people lay around hurt waiting for the medics? Both give up and duke it out in the courts? Because that is not what we see in unending repetitions on the tube. We see JodY Foster drill a perp through a whiskey bottle and he dies from a single 9mm wound in about 2 minutes.

The knowledge we have as practiced shooters should dispel some of these unreal expectations for us  -that may be one of our largest assets - even the gang bangers have,I believe,unrealistic expectations for the results of the handgun. WE should know better and not give up a fight - until it is over - for the other.



Do - or do not, There is no "try".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BlackSwan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/09/2008 at 21:47
Another strategy given the recent input - is to dodge and run like -hell. Because most people holding a pistol have not shot at a moving target. I will quickly consider running away - to hold my B-lls another day.

Do - or do not, There is no "try".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/09/2008 at 21:52
Originally posted by BlackSwan BlackSwan wrote:

Another strategy given the recent input - is to dodge and run like -hell. Because most people holding a pistol have not shot at a moving target. I will quickly consider running away - to hold my B-lls another day.



Absolutely, if you can get away that way I say go for it.  In the training I have had they always taught us to get moving first even running then draw you weapon and engage as you are running if needs be. 

If you can't try and run a large circle around and behind them, keeping them turning trying to follow you and hammer them and keep going until they are on the ground.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/10/2008 at 08:51
Originally posted by BlackSwan BlackSwan wrote:

Another strategy given the recent input - is to dodge and run like -hell. Because most people holding a pistol have not shot at a moving target. I will quickly consider running away - to hold my B-lls another day.
The budo rule: never engage if you don't HAVE to. Only fight, of any type, I want to be in is one I cannot get away from...except in the Ring. Those are fun.
I believe the last statistics I saw said that there is under a 40% chance of being "hit" if one runs from a criminal encounter where the criminal shoots, and that there is under a 10% chance of any resulting wound being fatal. Those are pretty fair odds, in my book. Info was a couple of years back though, could be different now.
Anyway, I thought that was a given for the discussion we were having...situation where the decision has already been made that one must fight.
Great discussion, great thoughts. It leaves much to think about, evaluate. Thank you for your inputs, all who are participating.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BlackSwan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/10/2008 at 09:11
I thought I had learned all there was - but had never heard of Dale's "Nash Equilibrium" which I am sure comes from military theory (kinda brings up memories of being car sick in the back of the old mans Rambler station wagon). I have never heard of the Budo rule.

Try this one:BlackSwan affirmation rule: If you train enough - eventually you will break the Budo rule.

After spending a lot of time and ammo learning just a portion of what Dale Clifford had to teach, I found myself packing, surfing the tougher parts of South Salt Lake City - in and out of pawn shops on the surface looking for a gun deal - but in reality looking for a fight. I have seen young men who after spending years in Wado - Ru testing their DoJo skills on the street. I think this is a younger mans mindset - the more mature gain some wisdom.

This is probably why old smart guys are the Generals.
Do - or do not, There is no "try".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/10/2008 at 09:20
maybe instead of going to south salt lake you should go to west valley or west jordan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/10/2008 at 09:32

most of the subject, so far, has dealt with strategy (trajedy for some), with some tactics thrown in. Fortress, rhodesian (run toward) , rabbit (run away). "Quartering" is a tactical manuever (used in martial arts) or technique, called flanking by military types, used to break into the defensive perimeter once distancing has been established. Its effectiveness is enhanced by a parry, fake, or draw. (bruce lee Jeet-kun do-and many others). A tactical method, (undercut, left hook, roundhouse, speed rock) should not be substituted for a strategy, and a strategy will never win a fight.

If you pull up to a stop sign and 3 other cars pull up at the same time, one of the cars will take off first- these are fast starters, 2 off the others will be close but will see what the others will do. you are the decision maker watching- this is a Nash equil. from Game theortic modeling, a branch of math. that deals with things such as why countries with limited GNP and only one or two items for export impose trade sanctions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/10/2008 at 09:37
I would add that it also works for calculating matriculation rates, such as how many soldiers it takes to win a battle, based on self inflicted wounds, awol, insubordination, etc. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BlackSwan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2008 at 10:33

Updated  basic pistol skills for personal defense. No one has argued vs my proposed times:

    1. First cold shot from concealment - 1.2 sec or less / center hit out to 10 paces
    2. "Speed rock" at 5 paces body hits x2 in 1.2 sec (means # 1 should be .8 or so)
    3. Bill drill at 10 paces in 2.5 sec. from exposed draw. 6 hits
    4. Lowlight hits with flashlight use 60%
    5. Speed reload in 2.5 sec from belt pouch.
    6. Palm drills, (transferring the gun back and forth between hands)

     7. Reverse slide cocking (holding the slide fixed against something like the leg to cock it with one hand)

     8. Shooting at least 25% of practice rounds left handed. This includes using the left    eye, and magazine changes using the weak hand

     9. Magazine changes using one hand.

 

 

Proposed basic shotgun skills for personal defense:

1.      familiarity with manual-of-arms for shotgun 870 vs benelli etc

2.      6 shots on steel plates at 15 yd 3 sec

3.      single reload from belt or side saddle 3 sec

4.      silent movement indoors in low ready position

5.      running outdoors – shooting on run

6.      use of sling / use of weapon mounted light/discipline

7.      transition to pistol

8.      slug shot a 100 yd on 18 inch steel plate.

You shot gunners need to step up !

Do - or do not, There is no "try".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2008 at 22:09
the times you suggest would be master class, roughly, and would eliminate some of the need for movement, sense the handgun would be more efficient to 25-50 yds than say a shotgun, or carbine.  I've seen the bill drill done with .6 out and .1 sec splits. or about 1.4 secs. for master and grand master shooters. so 2.5 to 3.0 would be a reasonable goal. gunsite instructors tend to run about class B shooters. (exceptions I'm sure).
 I would like to suggest that the actual mechanical similarities between hand gun and defensive shotgun be reviewed. If a set of hand manuvers that can be used between the two exist, such that a new set of skills not be needed or relearned.
to start with of course)
flash sight picture.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BlackSwan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2008 at 22:19
So - restate my standards with what you think are basics - and eliminate what needs to be removed from the pistol standards for shotgun. I invite you to edit. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BlackSwan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2008 at 22:23
If I could get my hands on a shotgun inside 25 yards I would use that over the handgun. Depending on load and conditions.
So you disagree that the handgun is just a tool to fight to your long gun?

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Do - or do not, There is no "try".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/13/2008 at 08:59
I'd put the concealed shot at about 2.5 sec for the average proficient shooter
and a speed rock at 1.5 to 1.8 for the average with an ideal holster
it would depend on the immediacy of the moment-- if one has the time or the logistics to fight towards a shotgun, then one has time just to get the hell out of there. to fight towards a better weapon assumes disengagement , then re-engagement- if the object of the re-engagement is worth it-lots of combinations, then one gets into why a shotgun why not just a select fire weapon, or maybe an rpg (my choice).
standing and shooting with a handgun in action shooting is much different than NRA style target shooting. I would rather do a "flying squirrel" (go prone) with the handgun which can be very accurate to 50 yds. than mentally recalculate a different tactical approach.
note to edit in required shooting skills
prone head shots at 25 thru 50 yds.
a zone hits from kneeling at 25 yds.
 
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