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Roy Finn
MODERATOR Steiner Junkie Joined: April/05/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4856 |
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Thanks Sako, I wasn't thinking you were wrong, I was just wondering how that could/would effect groups. Maybe we can get Barsness to comment on this. I know I read something from him not to long ago that seating up on the lands didn't always produce the best groups. Just from my own experience, it did, more often than not, produce the best groups by seating close or touching the lands. I guess not everything is written in stone.
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sakomato
Optics Master Joined: February/28/2008 Location: Houston Status: Offline Points: 1166 |
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I have also had good results seating into the lands and crimping with the Lee Factory Crimp. I always start lower and work back up to look for pressure signs or drastic increases in velocity and have only noted a slight increase in velocity from the same powder charge seated into the lands. I have had accuracy problems when trying to seat close to but not touching the lands.
My method on most rifles is to seat new cases against the lands to mitigate case stretch and then .020" or more for the next loadings. To me it is more important to get consistant seating depth. Consistant seating depth is not always an easy thing and any change in inside diameter of the neck or the hardness of the neck brass will impede the seating and cause inconsistancies. Not to mention the dreaded.........runout Edited by sakomato - February/04/2009 at 23:14 |
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Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians
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Roy Finn
MODERATOR Steiner Junkie Joined: April/05/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4856 |
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Oh I'm with you all the way on that one, getting consistent seating depths that is. I never realized that there were lot to lot ogive inconsistencies until I bought that comparator thingy from Sinclair. I thought I was cracking up. I read something of a little tip from John Barsness about improving handloads that made sense and it ties into runout/concentricity (sp?). He was stating that the expander ball more often than not lead to case necks getting streched out of alignment, so his tip was to loosen the expander ball assembly during the resizing process kind of like the concept of a die with a floating bushing. Made perfect sense to me and I'm going to give that a try.
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Dale Clifford
Optics Jedi Knight Joined: July/04/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5087 |
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not sure you can tell anything from a 3 shot group, but looks to me the shooter has the dreaded right handers pull. where is you scope reticle lined up just after the shot?
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8shots
Optics Jedi Knight Lord Of The Flies Joined: March/14/2007 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 6253 |
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The dreaded flyers! Ask me about them. The causes are many fold and has to be eliminated one by one. Start at the cheapest options first, and slowly work your way through your bank account. It normally ends with a new rifle, new scope and new barrel!
I firstly think you need to show us 5 shot groups. What you think is a flyer may in fact be poor grouping. Some rifles are sensitive to load, OAL and bullet type and or weight.
As an example I just could not get Nosler Part to group.
I think for now you should just work with 130 gr Sierra Gameking, as they are tried and trusted for accuracy. Do not use 150 gr bullets for now. From there make sure your case prep is consistent and length size all the cases. Doing outside neck turning or sizing is also advisable. Only necksize fired cases, do not do a full resize.
Then make up 4 or 5 loads of the same OAL about 2 thou off the lands, but 0,5 gr powder intervals from mid amount permissable, working upwards to the higher amount permissable. make up 5 bullets per load so 20 or 25 rounds required.Hopefully somewhere out of the 5 loads one should group OK. Wait for the barrel to cool in between firing. From there you can fine tune the grouping by playing around with the OAL.
If this does not give a grouping, the problem lies elsewher and it is time to take out your wallet!
Bedding, trigger, barrel etc now all start coming into play. Edited by 8shots - February/05/2009 at 03:52 |
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trigger29
Optics Master Extraordinaire X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ? Joined: September/29/2007 Location: South Dakota Status: Offline Points: 4353 |
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Well, here goes. I haven't had any luck with 130 gr. bullets yet, factory or my own. The rifle is a 1-10" twist, which should be good for 150 gr. The action screws are torqued to 40 in./lb. I've been finding though some serious bullet inconsistancy. If I try to load them .002 off the lands, some of them touch the lands, and some don't The bullet ogive just seems to change that much. I'm going to try some Hornady 140 gr. sst and see if they work better. I've never tried to work up until pressure signs showed. All the factory cases I have show massively flattened primers, but none of my loads show anything like this. Maybe this gun wants higher load density? I don't know, I'm just reaching now. Also, I've not been waiting for the barrel to cool between shots. I shoot a group of three, and then wait about 15 min. or so. Maybe I need to take more time between the three shots?
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"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." |
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300S&W
Optics God Joined: January/27/2008 Location: Burlington,WV Status: Offline Points: 10592 |
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The inconsistant distance to the lands is the main reason for using a comparator. It gives you a consistant cartridge OAL from casing base to bullet ogive. It only takes a few thousandths variation in ogive position on bullets to give you inconsistant distances from the lands when cartridge OAL is measured from casing base to bullet tip.
Not letting your bbl cool down between shots in your three shot group could be causing your third shot of the group flyer. I've heard that the WSM's are loaded pretty much to the max from the factory for top velocities but I'm not liking at all that you say ALL factory ammo primers are"massively flattened". If your using those fired factory casings for your reloads are the primers seating loosely? Wish you had access to a chronograph to see what velocities your factory rounds are giving! Chrono's also helpful in load development.
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trigger29
Optics Master Extraordinaire X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ? Joined: September/29/2007 Location: South Dakota Status: Offline Points: 4353 |
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The primer pockets seem fine. Primers seat tightly. I think a comperator would be the ticket. I've seen a difference of .010-.015 in OAL with seating soft point bullets. I know the lead on the end is a big factor, but how are you supposed to figure out a consistant seating depth without a comperator? I need to get one of those, and a chrono. And most importantly some income. As far as factory ammo, I think winchester loads them to absolute max. I looked at loads all over, from several manuals, and none match what winchester claims on their factory velocities.
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"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." |
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8shots
Optics Jedi Knight Lord Of The Flies Joined: March/14/2007 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 6253 |
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I would look at your method of reloading. At the end of the day, one you have set your seating depth, it should remain consistant to say 2 thou off the lands or whatever. Inconsistency can come from poor bullet uniformity (an unlikely problem), poor seating dies or poor technique in reloading. It can also be due to a variation in case length. Are you cutting them to uniform length?
The only other area is your bolt face. Is it clean? Are there any non-uniform marks or something on the bolt face.
My one rifle, a Heym 30-06 likes me to load it to the higher end of permissable, in fact I an on the higher end. Anything in the middle just goes all over the show.
In my opinion you need to stay on the 130 gr and push your velocities up. (I may be wrong, but the 150 is not quite tailored for the 270)
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trigger29
Optics Master Extraordinaire X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ? Joined: September/29/2007 Location: South Dakota Status: Offline Points: 4353 |
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This is great discussion guys. By the time I try everyone's ideas I should have about 5 great loads. Now I just need to go buy 500 bullets, of about 5 different manufacturers, and 5 powders. I can see this being a bad obsession. Wife's ready to tear the whole works down already.
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"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." |
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Bigdaddy0381
MODERATOR Georgia peach Joined: February/27/2007 Location: Georgia Status: Offline Points: 13682 |
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Your just getting started. It gets worse.
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P&Z Firearms , Pro gun cleanings and gun repair and wood refinishing.
Ecclesiastes 10:2 |
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trigger29
Optics Master Extraordinaire X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ? Joined: September/29/2007 Location: South Dakota Status: Offline Points: 4353 |
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Well that's good to know. I've developed a severe case of O.C.D. already. I'm weighing cases, and weighing bullets, and measuring every case length, weighing charges to the gnat's a$$. I don't know what more I can do, but when I figure out what it is, I'll do that too. How does one avoid runout? I've noticed, when seating flat base bullets, that they probably fall over once they get inside the die, and I can't hold them anymore. Is there some secret trick to fix this dilema?
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"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." |
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ckk1106
Optics Master Joined: December/14/2007 Location: Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1439 |
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I think the seating die thing is probably pointed so that when the case gets up high enough, where you cant hold on to the bullet anymore, the bullet goes up into the seating thing and it straightens the bullet out before the bullet starts to seat. Not sure if that makes sense. |
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trigger29
Optics Master Extraordinaire X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ? Joined: September/29/2007 Location: South Dakota Status: Offline Points: 4353 |
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It makes sense, and I was figuring that was the case. I just didn't know if it actually worked.
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"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." |
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trigger29
Optics Master Extraordinaire X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ? Joined: September/29/2007 Location: South Dakota Status: Offline Points: 4353 |
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I was also wondering if I should try a different primer. I've been using winchester large rifle magnums. I bought some federal 215 magnums also, but haven't tried any yet. Maybe I should try non magnum primers?
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"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." |
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geezer
Optics Apprentice Joined: October/22/2008 Location: Georgia Status: Offline Points: 133 |
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Methods for minimizing runout -
You can use a Forster style seating die that holds the cartridge case in line with the bullet or a Hornady style that uses a sliding inline alignment sleeve
Another suggestion that I have heard of is to start the bullet into the case, then rotate the shell 180 degrees in the shellholder and finish seating
I have used the Hornady style seating die and I can definitely feel the bullet start and enter into the case neck with less resistance. I have the equipment to check runout, but I don't do it often because I hasn't been a factor for the type of hunting and plinking that I do.
Regarding primers, I've read test results in several places that discussed substituting primers. I think that it is discussed in Lyman's reloading manual. To be safe, it is suggested that you reduce the load and work back up when changing any component. I'll see if I can find the info about substituting primers tonight. I remember a rule of thumb that magnum primers are usually used under the following conditions -
When the charge exceeds 60 Grs
When shooting in extreme cold - don't remember the temp stated
When using powders with slow burn rates
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I would give you my two cents worth, but then you would probably have to give half to the gov't and what good is one penny
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300S&W
Optics God Joined: January/27/2008 Location: Burlington,WV Status: Offline Points: 10592 |
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8shots,I to thought that poor bullet uniformity was an unlikely problem until,when YEARS back,I read Sinclair International's Precision Reloading Handbook. They've found that bullet length can vary by as much as .025". Hence the development of the comparator.
Trigger,you've said you get 3/4" groups with factory ammo. No fliers,right? If it was me to start out I'd be trying to duplicate that ammo. If you had a comparator I would be seating my handloads to the same OAL as those factory rounds and if you had a chrono you could watch for unusual velocity variations which I believe is an indication of approaching the max load for that powder. Your not dealing with a precision made rifle here so weighing casings(unless they're different brands)and bullets isn't really necessary. I to weigh my powder charges as close as I can. As far as run out goes if you can roll your handloads across a mirror and not see bullet wobble your good to go in a factory hunting grade rifle. I'm sure Winchester didn't run that factory ammo on a concentricity gauge. I honestly believe your trying to hard,bud. What is the general consensus on the best powder to use with the bullet weight you want to use? Stay with that for now. Don't worry with the brand of primer right now but do stick with magnum primer.
If you want to and don't mind PMing me your address,I've got an extra bullet comparator and some reload info I'd like to send ya. I don't have an extra chronograph though!! You can get by without the chrono for now by not exceeding the manuals max listed powder charge,watching for the"usual pressure signs"and by watching your group sizes. I would hope you'd get into GOOD group sizes that you'd be satisfied with before you reach that max charge.
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trigger29
Optics Master Extraordinaire X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ? Joined: September/29/2007 Location: South Dakota Status: Offline Points: 4353 |
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WOOOOOHOOOOO!!! More pressure! Push them faster!! Sorry. I'm kind of excited. Somebody who wished to remain nameless didn't want to say "load them hotter" in the open forum, and 300S&W said duplicate the factory ammo. Well the factory stuff is loaded way hotter than what I was loading. I pushed the bullets out to the lands, and put another 1.5 grains to it. First group measued .343 center to center. I was elated to say the least. I tried a second to confirm. they went .278. This was with the Sierra Gameking 150 gr. Then I tried some 130 gr. Hornady's. Same deal, put the bullet right on the lands and put more powder to it. They went in to .798. Not spectacular, but as well as it's ever done with 130s. Next was some 140 Hornady sst's. These were .008 off the lands, and about 2 grains from max load. They went in to .773. Again, not benchrest accuracy, but good enough for the animals I hunt. I can tweak it yet. I really appreciate all the help guys. I know all these questions have been asked 100 times, but I'm retarded, and can't ever remember anything. In the future I hope I can find a way to help all of you in return. I have to go load about 1000 rounds now. Be back when I get done. Thanks guys!!
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"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." |
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rifle looney
Optics Master Joined: November/21/2008 Status: Offline Points: 2553 |
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I too said could some one help him duplicate the factory ammo.....
good deal Trigger.... but don't load a whole bunch the same right now, you are shooting in real cold weather and things can change when it warms up? |
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trigger29
Optics Master Extraordinaire X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ? Joined: September/29/2007 Location: South Dakota Status: Offline Points: 4353 |
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Actually these would be a good hunting load for me, and this is about exactly the conditions I hunt in. I may have to tweak them to shoot when it's warmer, but it got to about 50 degrees today. It usually runs about 30-40 when I'm hunting. There's not going to be a huge change is there?
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"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." |
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