Zen Ray 7x36 ED, Zeiss 7x42 FL and Nikon 7x35 E co

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   I do get the devil's advocate part.  Let's put it this way, after having the Promaster ELX ED for over a year, and hunting the devil out of it through a very abnormally cold, wet season, and after having it ride around in my truck as the truck bino, it has taken the lickin' and it is still tickn'.  I find that if a bino is going to have issues, especially poor quality issues, they are going to manifest pretty quickly, more often than not, straight out of the box.  I see no reason to think the ZEN ED (or the Hawke Frontier ED or Atlas Intrepid ED for that matter) is any less well built. 

The Promaster has been purposely left outside overnight in the winter for several wet-freeze-thaw-wet-freeze-thaw cycles.  No problem with fogging or internal condensation.

So, taking that into consideration, if your question was rephrased; "Would you consider using one of these as your only binocular for everything?", the answer would be yes, I would.  I would of course harbor some trepidation about using a pretty well unproved design, but sometimes you have to go with your gut when it comes to your outdoor gear.  I get no negative "gut feeling" about these.  Now, our outdoor gear changes it composition as we gain experience with it, and it is possible that the thing would not stand up to a couple years worth of scrutiny.  I seems that it really does take that long to give an optic a thorough evaluation.

Edited by Klamath - August/25/2009 at 11:18

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Klamath Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Optics Apprentice Joined: May/20/2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 259	Quote Reply Topic: Zen Ray 7x36 ED, Zeiss 7x42 FL and Nikon 7x35 E co Posted: August/25/2009 at 10:11
	I do get the devil's advocate part. Let's put it this way, after having the Promaster ELX ED for over a year, and hunting the devil out of it through a very abnormally cold, wet season, and after having it ride around in my truck as the truck bino, it has taken the lickin' and it is still tickn'. I find that if a bino is going to have issues, especially poor quality issues, they are going to manifest pretty quickly, more often than not, straight out of the box. I see no reason to think the ZEN ED (or the Hawke Frontier ED or Atlas Intrepid ED for that matter) is any less well built. The Promaster has been purposely left outside overnight in the winter for several wet-freeze-thaw-wet-freeze-thaw cycles. No problem with fogging or internal condensation. So, taking that into consideration, if your question was rephrased; "Would you consider using one of these as your only binocular for everything?", the answer would be yes, I would. I would of course harbor some trepidation about using a pretty well unproved design, but sometimes you have to go with your gut when it comes to your outdoor gear. I get no negative "gut feeling" about these. Now, our outdoor gear changes it composition as we gain experience with it, and it is possible that the thing would not stand up to a couple years worth of scrutiny. I seems that it really does take that long to give an optic a thorough evaluation. Edited by Klamath - August/25/2009 at 11:18
	Steve

JGRaider Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Optics Apprentice Joined: February/06/2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 206	Quote Reply Posted: August/25/2009 at 10:15
	I will certainly not try to answer Frank's question for him, but I've had the opportunity to look through my 10x Ed2's next to my trinovid (edge to Zen), my neighbor's 10x SLC (slight edge to Zen), and my hunting budddie's 10x EL (slight edge to EL). I can absolutely be sure that you will not be able to see something with the EL (or anything else for that matter) that you can't see with the Zen, and vice versa. I'm going to start using them hard scouting mule deer country and really put them through the paces.

FrankD Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Optics Journeyman Joined: November/11/2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 416	Quote Reply Posted: August/25/2009 at 19:36
	RD, Why the Zeiss ofcourse. If money were no object. But then that isn't the real world now is it? ;) Yes, the Zen's are a fantastic binocular. The optical performance is superb and is certainly only bettered "overall" by a very small handful of binoculars that sell at 2-5x the cost.
	Frank

RifleDude Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Optics Jedi Knight Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Online Status: Offline Posts: 6108	Quote Reply Posted: August/25/2009 at 22:11
	Stated another way... knowing what you know now, if you didn't have the Zeiss, given the performance of the ZR ED, would you still purchase it? I know in an absolute sense the Zeiss is better, but do you believe it is $1200 better? Having read many of your posts on birdforum, I know that you are an optics looney like I am, and you enjoy owning many binoculars... but I thought I'd ask anyway out of curiosity! Personally... as good as some of the mid to upper mid range roofs have become, it is getting harder for me to recommend to anyone to buy an alpha class binocular anymore, despite how much I love my Leica Ultra HD. I just don't know that the alphas are worth the extra premium vs. the remarkable performance of the Zen, Promaster, Hawke ED, Vortex Razor, Meopta, Kowa Genesis, etc.
	Ted You can tell a lot about a fellow's character by his way of eating jellybeans. -- Ronald Reagan

Klamath Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Optics Apprentice Joined: May/20/2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 259	Quote Reply Posted: August/25/2009 at 23:26
	Ted, there is absolutely no question whatsoever in my mind that I'd get the ZEN ED. I have spent most of my life gagging at the price charged for the top end binoculars. For quite awhile, up to maybe 10-12 years ago, they were visibly better. But now the list price for a Zeiss FL in some places is $2,400. Are you kidding me! Yeah I know you can look around and get one cheaper. I'd feel a lot better using a $400 glass than a $2,400. Besides if I was going for a top end glass, I'd check in with a Steiner Peregrine XP. I actually reviewed the Steiner XP and had the money at that time to buy it. It simply could not step far enough away fro the ZEN for me to pull the trigger. People tout the alpha ruggedness, but quite frankly I have seen a couple of pretty expensive glass give it completely up over some pretty minor stuff, so in truth, nothing is going to be "fail-safe" on a hunt. So, in my estimation, what the ZEN ED is, is a more than satisfactory alternative for somebody who can't (or even won't) pony up alpha cash. Is the alpha better? On most levels it probably is. Is the ZEN ED good enough? On what I see the answer is probably yes. Is there some evidence of a couple minor bumps causing problems? Yeah there is. But do we really know what the next bump is going to do to any binocular. I guess if you really value extreme use ability, then the alpha is your deal. Edited by Klamath - August/25/2009 at 23:28
	Steve

RifleDude Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Optics Jedi Knight Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Online Status: Offline Posts: 6108	Quote Reply Posted: August/26/2009 at 09:56
	I hear ya, Steve. The better $500 - $900 class roofs nowadays are so good that it's becoming harder to justify the price of the alphas anymore... especially after the price increases we've recently seen from the "big 3" as a result of the declining value of the dollar.
	Ted You can tell a lot about a fellow's character by his way of eating jellybeans. -- Ronald Reagan

SChunter Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Optics Apprentice Joined: December/02/2007 Location: usa Online Status: Offline Posts: 210	Quote Reply Posted: August/26/2009 at 10:10
	Ted, I was in that boat up until August 5, 2009. I had looked and looked and researched until I could do no more. Side by side comparisons of the Zeiss and Leica and Swaro (all 8x40'ish) and Vortex 8.5x50. I decided to give the Zen ED II's a try. I am not disappointed. The 750 bucks saved over the Leica Ultravids on sale and the 300 bucks saved on the Vortex thus far is money in the bank! On Aug 14, 2009 a friend with 2 yr old Zeiss 10x42 (I think, or 40 or 43) compared my new out of the box Zens at dusk. Hands down, the owner couldn't figure out what was wrong with his Zeiss. Brightness and clarity were excellent. Durability? Don't know--but after the opening of the Aug 15 whitetail season here and hours of glassing at a time with no headache or eye strain, I am glad I made the purchase. Hopefully John B will have good things to say about durability following his Alaska hunt about the Zen's. Only time will tell! And a big thanks goes to Chris and SWFA for getting them to me in a great timely fashion! sam

Klamath Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Optics Apprentice Joined: May/20/2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 259	Quote Reply Posted: August/26/2009 at 10:24
	There is now, and probably always will be, a part of me that will want a high class glass. I will never forget the "WOW" I got when I looked at the first of the Leica Trinovids that had phase corrected. But then, there was nothing that could compare to those, or to the Zeiss. Today, it is different. Like you point out, when you get close to $500 and over, it is hard to imagine the need for "better", however that is defined. If you make your living with the glass and/or hunt everywhere whenever or wherever you can, then I agree some extra peace of mind has a price as well. Better and best value can be defined in various ways. But make no mistake, If you can't see it with a ZEN ED, you can't see it with your favorite flavor of alpha either. And, yes I have had them side by side to just about everything except maybe a Minox HG or a Swarovski SLC. Now specifically to the Zeiss ET AL, I rank them as follows: Steiner XP, Leica Ultravid, Swarovski EL. Nikon EDG, Swaro SLC, and Zeiss FL. If I thought I had to "improve" the ZEN it would be with a Meopta Meostar. I can see where they are worth it and they do have a stellar durability reputation
	Steve

RifleDude Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Optics Jedi Knight Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Online Status: Offline Posts: 6108	Quote Reply Posted: August/26/2009 at 11:00
	I can't praise my 8X32 Ultravid HD's enough. I love them; they are an absolute joy to use and carry! I don't feel like I'm sacrificing much optical performance for their remarkably compact size and light weight. I don't at all regret owning them. However, I don't think I will ever buy an alpha bin again unless I just happen on a deal too good to pass up. As good as they are, they aren't twice as good as my Vortex Razor or the Hawke Frontier ED I recently tested. Those bins produce image quality that so closely approaches the Leica that I think the extra money is better used elsewhere. Sorry for the detour, Frank. Again, I enjoyed your review. I think these comparisons reinforce the fact that some of the mid range bins are really giving the alphas a run for their money!
	Ted You can tell a lot about a fellow's character by his way of eating jellybeans. -- Ronald Reagan

Klamath Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Optics Apprentice Joined: May/20/2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 259	Quote Reply Posted: August/26/2009 at 11:06
	Well, Ted since we seem to be more or less in agreement, I too apologize to Frank for the thread hijack. And Frank, thanks for the review. That saves me having to find a 7x42 FL to compare my 7x36 ZEN to.
	Steve

FrankD Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Optics Journeyman Joined: November/11/2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 416	Quote Reply Posted: August/26/2009 at 15:54
	Not a problem guys. It is nice to see both sides of the discussion for a change instead of just one side or the other. As for you earlier question Ted, yes, I would probably buy the Zens and be happy with the fact that I was getting superb optical performance for the price that they sell for. I would not feel as if I was "missing out" by not purchasing an Alpha for my intended applications.
	Frank

cajunhunter Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Optics Apprentice Joined: August/08/2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 103	Quote Reply Posted: September/01/2009 at 17:33
	I own a pair of the Zeiss Victory T*FL in 7x42 and now the 10x43 Zen ED. I only had to pay about $1300 for the Zeiss as a new show special. I can't imagine paying another $1000 for them at 2300-2400. I am happy with the ZR and will put them to the test for my elk trip this Sept. It has always been a "you get what you pay for optics world" times have changed. We now have optics that are near alpha class for maybe 20% of the price of some of the alpha glass. I am just waiting for that nice compact light, mountain hiking 6x32. I would get the Vortex Viper, but I just got to think that we are going to see a pair from ZR soon. I hope.