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cheaptrick View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2010 at 17:57
Originally posted by bearslayer bearslayer wrote:

I shot a very nice Bull Elk on october the 12th at 905 yards with a 5-32X52 March with the MTR-1 reticle. 
 
Hmmmm. I really find a shot taken like that on an elk very disturbing. Hope it was a clean kill, friend.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2010 at 20:25
 


Edited by 338LAPUASLAP - October/24/2010 at 16:16
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2010 at 21:39
1st shot right behind the shoulder. Mid high.2nd shot3 inches to the right of the1st .piled right there. How can it be disturbing to you? You have no idea who I am.I am a sponsored shooter
I sure would not critisize someone I have no idea who they are.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2010 at 22:02
Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

Originally posted by bearslayer bearslayer wrote:

I shot a very nice Bull Elk on october the 12th at 905 yards with a 5-32X52 March with the MTR-1 reticle. 

 

Hmmmm. I really find a shot taken like that on an elk very disturbing. Hope it was a clean kill, friend.

 

Welcome to Optics Talk.


Well I see you have 10701 posts on here.Maybe you should spend some of that time practicing instead of bashing people

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2010 at 22:10
Originally posted by 338LAPUASLAP 338LAPUASLAP wrote:

Stiring The Pot


Details on the shot?
 

Caliber/Cartridge?

Rifle? Twist?

Conditions?

How many Shots?

How did you range it?

 

 

ranged at 905 yards
7mm ultra magazine berger 180 Vld
could not ask for a better rest
Dead on 1 shot
1 in 8 twist. 28 IN BARREL
not my 1st Rodeo
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2010 at 03:45

Uh...I never "bashed" you, Dude. Roll Eyes

 
Good luck with that whole "sponsored shooter", "you don't know me", "you've got a high post count" trip too, Dude.
 
You'll go far here.    Thunbs Up
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2010 at 06:22
Originally posted by bearslayer bearslayer wrote:

Originally posted by 338LAPUASLAP 338LAPUASLAP wrote:

Stiring The Pot


Details on the shot?
 

Caliber/Cartridge?

Rifle? Twist?

Conditions?

How many Shots?

How did you range it?

 

 

ranged at 905 yards
7mm ultra magazine berger 180 Vld
could not ask for a better rest
Dead on 1 shot
1 in 8 twist. 28 IN BARREL
not my 1st Rodeo

 
 What exactly is a sponsored shooter? And where was this elk taken?
If it is tourist season, why can't we shoot them?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2010 at 07:10
bearslayer:

Nobody is judging you personally. 

I can't believe I'm actually going down this road again, but...

You have to understand that shooting at big game animals at super long range is a VERY controversial topic, and this topic usually stirs up negative reactions not only on this board, but at most hunting related boards on the net.  When a person brags about a super long shot at a big game animal, that usually implies that the goal of the hunt was seeing how far a shot can be successfully made rather than the conscientious effort to do everything possible to ensure that all the odds are in your favor for the highest percentage shot and the least likelihood of a wounded animal.  Then, where does it stop?  When you make a 900 yd shot, are you satisfied with that, or does the goal then become to make a 1000, 1200, 1500, 2000 yd shot?  To many, including me, that shows questionable hunting ethics.  It has nothing to do with your skill as a long range shooter.  It has to do with ethics, respect for the animal, and the effect of such activities on our image as hunters to the non-hunting public, people who vote and therefore have an effect on our hunting future.  No matter how good a shooter you are and how good your equipment is, there are just too many variables that are totally outside your control, namely that a previously still animal can suddenly move between the time the trigger breaks and the bullet arrives, the wind value can change or shift direction, etc.  What would have been a good shot in the vitals could then become a marginal shot that results in a wounded and lost animal.  An animal who suffered and died for no reason.  The goal of all hunters should be to show respect to his or her quarry and strive for shots with the least likelihood of failure and the greatest likelihood of a clean, humane, kill possible.  Anything less is unacceptable to most hunters.  Big game animals are precious resources we all share. 

Many of us here enjoy long range shooting.  It's a challenging and rewarding shooting discipline.  However, there is a huge difference between shooting at targets or using those skills in combat situations and willingly making game animals your target to see how far you can make a kill.  I realize that long range "hunting" is becoming more popular, and with improvements in equipment, a shooter who puts in the time can become very capable of taking animals at extreme range (the definition of which varies depending on who you talk to).  However, at some point, we all have to evaluate what the goal is.  If the goal becomes more about the distance than showing respect for the animal and trying to make as humane a kill as possible, it's wrong, plain and simple.  Since it is exceedingly rare that a hunter cannot possibly get within 400 yards of a game animal, I see no compelling reason to attempt a longer shot than that without first doing everything possible to get closer.  That is the essence of hunting.

Be advised that this topic quite often generates a heated discussion.  We will not allow this to become a flame war.  If you want to discuss the pros and cons of long range hunting, please start a new topic so this one does not continue further off topic. 
Ted


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2010 at 07:20
By the way, I totally understand the allure of putting your long range skills to the test on something other than paper.  I routinely shoot at prairie dogs at extreme distance, exceeding 1000 yards.  However, prairie dogs are vermin that cause damage to property and will often be poisoned by the rancher.  Any hit anywhere on a prairie dog with frangible bullets results in a pretty quick kill.  I'm also not going to eat the prairie dogs.  It's a different story with a big game animal, where risking a marginal hit can result in a slow agonizing death, with the animal potentially traveling great distances and being lost.  
Ted


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2010 at 07:27
Originally posted by bearslayer bearslayer wrote:

1st shot right behind the shoulder. Mid high.2nd shot3 inches to the right of the1st .piled right there. How can it be disturbing to you? You have no idea who I am.I am a sponsored shooter
I sure would not critisize someone I have no idea who they are.
 
By whom may I ask?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2010 at 08:06
Well said Ted a great representation of ethics & what we as hunters are supposed to know before we buy a hunting licence...Thanks

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2010 at 15:37

For many years competition shooters and military marksman/snipers have been shooting long range. In recent years there has been an explosion interest in the sport. There are commonly television shows depicting hunters taking game out to and beyond 1000yds. Military competitions have been televised, along with a host of informational programs highlighting the rifles and equipment used. On the web there are plenty of long range shooting and "sniper" forums. There are almost endless amounts of videos on You Tube showing shooters engaging targets at ranges as far as a mile. With resources so readily available many enthusiasts are looking to shoot farther themselves.

There is still a large community of hunters who believe that shooting game beyond 200 or 300yds is simply unethical. They believe that human error is simply too great to shoot such distances with consistency. They believe that there is not enough energy available, and that bullets do not work properly at long range. There is some merit to their argument. When visiting a local shooting range recently, I would have to say the average 100yd group was about 5". It is not hard to see why many would consider shooting game beyond 300yds out of the question. Best case scenario, that group would be over 2 feet at 500yds! Even more amazing was than no one seemed particularly upset with these results. I would hope none of these "marksman" were planning to shoot game beyond 100yds. Some popular controlled expansion hunting bullets require higher velocity for proper expansion. If some of these bullets are used at long range they will simply retain form and punch a small hole through game not causing sufficient damage for an ethical kill. There are more than a few examples of long range hunting done the wrong way.

My good friend and shooting partner was recently hunting the eastern part of Washington. He wasn't seeing bucks so he decided to drop into the trees and see if he could push one up the meadow ahead. He's an accomplished long range marksman with field and competition experience, he has all the proper equipment, so he was prepared to shoot game at long range if need be. Sure enough his planned worked, he pushed a nice buck into the meadow, but before he got a chance to see it, he heard shooting ahead, three shots. An older gentleman had shot and killed the buck. At some point the man mentions he'd shot from 700yds to 800yds, he wasn't sure since his rangefinder was not working. Jesse ranged the rocks where the man claimed to have made the shot from, and it was in fact about 500yds away. My buddy helped de-bone the meat and it looked as if the one shot that hit of three was high missing the "vitals" completely, although the buck dropped not far from where it stood. A lucky shot for sure, since the range was unknown, the cross hairs were held high to compensate for drop, and actual ballistics were unknown by the shooter. He could have just as easily injured the buck or missed completely, although he'd likely continue shooting no matter how many times he missed.

Although I too question the ethics of some "long range hunters" the fact is that long distance accuracy is possible. With the right information, equipment, experience, and moral fortitude, it is very possible to be successful. If one does not know when to pass on a shot due to conditions that are beyond the shooter's ability to compensate for, it is very likely he would also make poor ethical judgments when shooting game at close range. Unfortunately barring these individuals from at shooting game is not possible. These few, are likely the reason long range hunting is viewed in a negative light by so many.

The business end of long distance shooting has come to conflict with the ethics of it. There is a problem with some television shows and advertisements showing an experienced long range marksman take an animal at 1000yds, turn to the camera and say something to the effect, "with such and such a product... it is just that easy". Perhaps what should be said is, "with dedication, research, testing in a multitude of conditions, thousands of rounds of practice, and such and such a product, it can be this easy". Sounds ridiculous and it is not going to sell products, but it is the truth. Worse yet when an inexperienced shooter takes a similar shot while someone else, dials the scope and gives the wind correction. Clearly this person has no business shooting at such distances. If he was to miss, who would be to blame?

These same shows will talk about ethics one minute and tell you how easy it is the next. This type of programming and advertising does not encourage ethics in any way, and you can not really blame them... they are simply trying to make a profit, not educate hunters how to make ethical shots on game. A show that would really educate would not be nearly as entertaining, no one would want to sponsor or advertise on such a program so it would simply be impossible to produce.

Fortunately, there is hope for improved long distance hunting ethics. I believe this to be an issue with a minority of long range hunters. With so many educational web sites, and more getting involved, it is very likely that through field practice, many will begin understand the potential complications and variables to consider when shooting long range at game animals. More would then be available to pass the information on, and in conjunction with the good information already available an even higher percentage of long range hunters would value experience and practice before products and hype.

 
It is not easy ,but it can be done! 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2010 at 15:45
Again, who are you sponsored by?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2010 at 15:53
bearslayer

I totally understand the whole sponsor thing, some of us here are or have been sponsored for certain activities we're or have been involved in. You threw it out there for all to read that your a sponsored shooter... so who's your sponsor(s)?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2010 at 15:58
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

It's a different story with a big game animal, where risking a marginal hit can result in a slow agonizing death, with the animal potentially traveling great distances and being lost.  


But what about the agony of those poor little fellers bleeding out after a leg has been blown off and they crawl down in their hole.  To some that would be just as bad. 

Its just a matter of perception. 

If you got the skill set......  Just like he said, a skilled marksmen can shoot as good at 500 to 600 yards as a lot of people can at 100 yards. 

Some of the rifle classes I have taken people can barely hit a target at 100 yards.

The last precision rifle class I took a guy had a $6000 rifle/optic setup.  He was lucky if he could shoot a 6" group at 100 yards.  It was ridiculous.  But then on the other hand, there were guys that was making first round center of mass hits and unknown distances every time out to 900 yards. 

Its just all about your knowledge as a shooter.  Hunting ethics are just a matter of perception as well. And based on a skill level some people may have a different outlook on those ethics. 


Edited by supertool73 - October/18/2010 at 16:00
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2010 at 17:35
The reasoned posts above illustrate very well why this topic is a sticky wicket.  There are no easy answers to any of this.  That's why the bottom line is the shooter has to be honest with him/herself about his/her abilities when game animals are at stake.  None of us own a game animal until we tag it, so our actions affect all fellow hunters.  All of us need to carefully evaluate what is and isn't ethical, not only for our own integrity, but for the image of the sport.
 
I personally believe that no matter the skill and preparation of the shooter and the quality of equipment, as long as there is a chance beyond a reasonable expectation of success that something outside our control can affect the shot not landing in the vitals, the shot shouldn't be taken.  Again, given enough distance, the animal can move, and even the best wind dopers among us can misjudge wind value when the wind may be doing a totally different thing where the animal stands than where the shooter stands.
 
I agree if the shooter can consistently place shots inside a circle equaling about half the diameter of a game animal's vitals at a given distance, in field conditions, the vast majority of the time, he's prepared to take the shot at that distance.  However, I have to question why it's ever necessary to take shots at game animals at super long distance.  If ego and bragging rights is among the reasons, then it's wrong.  In most cases, it is possible to get closer, and even when it's physically impossible to get closer, there's always the option of not taking the shot.  If the decision to take the shot is the result of plenty of practice and absolute certainty of making a vital hit and there's no possible way of getting closer, then I think the shot is ethical.  Again, I think the key is the shooter has to be honest with himself and make sure his actions are in the best interests of the animal and the sport.
 
ST -- some would say the simple fact I shoot prairie dogs in the first place is unethical because I'm not eating them.  As with all destructive, turbocharged breeding rodents, I consider them to be pests, as do the landowners of the places I shoot.  As such, I consider it no different than setting out mouse traps or killing any other pest rodent.  Shooting them anywhere on their body is much more immediately lethal and humane than poisoning them, which the ranchers frequently do.  Poisoning them causes dehydration and a slow agonizing death.  A shot at a PD is usually either a hit or a complete miss, and a hit anywhere on their bodies except their paws and tails, using frangible varmint bullets, is pretty quickly lethal.  In addition, they are not classified as game animals by any state game agency, with no limits, no seasons, and no restrictions on methods of killing them.  But, I understand and can appreciate your point.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2010 at 17:41
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

  There are no easy answers to any of this.


There it is.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2010 at 17:44
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

 
ST -- some would say the simple fact I shoot prairie dogs in the first place is unethical because I'm not eating them.  As with all destructive, turbocharged breeding rodents, I consider them to be pests, as do the landowners of the places I shoot.  As such, I consider it no different than setting out mouse traps or killing any other pest rodent.  Shooting them anywhere on their body is much more immediately lethal and humane than poisoning them, which the ranchers frequently do.  Poisoning them causes dehydration and a slow agonizing death.  A shot at a PD is usually either a hit or a complete miss, and a hit anywhere on their bodies except their paws and tails, using frangible varmint bullets, is pretty quickly lethal.  In addition, they are not classified as game animals by any state game agency, with no limits, no seasons, and no restrictions on methods of killing them.  But, I understand and can appreciate your point.


Don't have to convince me about shooting them.  I love shooting rodents, I have shot 1000s of them.   We call them pot-guts around here.  Little ground squirrels.  I went through 15,000 rounds of 22 long rifle one summer shooting them as a teen.  It was a lot of fun.

I was just playing devils advocate.  Big Grin  Just saying some people may see wounding one of them just as cruel.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2010 at 19:33
As I said before conditions were optimum for me to take the shot.The day before we were on another good bull and it was just not right to shoot way to windy..Kinda like cards"You have to know when to hold them and know when to fold them"!

As far as who sponsors my hunting I will not say at this time!This site appears way to volatile for that to come out.!

I do know that Shawn Carlock has been ridiculed also.He also is a great shot.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2010 at 21:06
Originally posted by bearslayer bearslayer wrote:

As I said before conditions were optimum for me to take the shot.The day before we were on another good bull and it was just not right to shoot way to windy..Kinda like cards"You have to know when to hold them and know when to fold them"!

As far as who sponsors my hunting I will not say at this time!This site appears way to volatile for that to come out.!

I do know that Shawn Carlock has been ridiculed also.He also is a great shot.



BS, if you feel you can make a long distance shot responsibly on big game why the heck not!!! I think that would be something a long range shooter would ultimately want to do to test their skills.  I'm just curious who your sponsor is/was since you mentioned you are/were. Most sponsors I've dealt in the past want you, amongst other things, to be out there promoting their products as much as possible. Depending on the agreement if you don't, your inactive, represent them inappropriately, conflict of interest, etc. you could get dropped from the sponsorship program/agreement. Being secretive about who it is your call. Welcome to the OT and hope you have a better experience here in future posts.


(edited for spelling errors)


Edited by mike650 - October/19/2010 at 12:16
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