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soldiers losing lives due to M4

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John Barsness View Drop Down
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  Quote John Barsness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: soldiers losing lives due to M4
    Posted: October/12/2009 at 09:02
jonoMT,
 
Interesting point about the administrations (plural).
 
The first incident cited in the story happened on July 13, 2008, the second one last week.
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Kickboxer View Drop Down
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  Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/12/2009 at 09:43
DoD is both an animal which devours and a machine which grinds.  Either aspect precludes rapid change of direction, especially for something as complicated as the primary battle weapon.  THEN, Federal Acquisition Regulations (FAR's) must be taken into consideration.  Change has been suggested, even initiated a number of times, but the good ole FARs always come into play.  Is the M16/M4 ADEQUATE??  If the answer to that is "yes", which is has been for a long time, then upfront costs and life-cycle costs come into play.  Do you have an inkling of the cost incurred to replacing the main battle rifle for the entire force, standing up the ammunition supply chains, parts, spares, introduction to the "force", training, manuals, etc?  That life-cycle cost is staggering and is why, even with a number of perceived and demonstrated deficiencies, the M16 has been modified over time and not replaced.  Easier and cheaper to stick with status quo.  There are a number of things which must occur to establish the "ADEQUATE" requirement, but many of them fall upon the individual soldier and training and are therefore intangible and discounted.  (you get the "well, the rifle would be just fine if you could get the soldiers to perform proper maintenance"). 
So, could we get enough in the field, given the current situation, to fulfill the actual need?  How often does the Government admit it made a mistake??? 
We don't have the manufacturing capability now that we had even in the 60' and 70's.  Where would we go to get the numbers of new rifles required to fulfill the "instantaneous" need?  China?  How long would it take us to gear up?  What about the guys who had to continue using M16/M4's waiting on the new rifle?  Would they think they were not as important as the guys who got new ones right away?  How's that working for you??  "The guy in the next trailer has the brand spanking new UMPTY UMP/WHIZBANG, and I'm stuck with a KNOWN inferior weapon.  I'm going on patrol at the same time he is..."
THEN, there is the politics... whose ox gets gored if we go to a different battle rifle???  You can bet there are senators who will rally round their constituencies for maintaining the current systems.  Jobs, factories, industrial base...
It is not as simple as it sounds and is much harder than I can make it sound in a simple post. 
Opinion, untempered by fact, is ignorance.
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Sgt. D View Drop Down
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  Quote Sgt. D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/12/2009 at 09:46
Unfortunatly our command bares much of the responsibility by not being as willing to adapt as our enemy. The enemy has learned that we often under man our posts and that they are too often under supplied. And to call for air support and it be refused or unavailable is need for heads to roll. I'm only a Sgt. but if we had called for air support due to being over run and I was loosing men and it was refused. I'd be in prison or dead for killing who ever was responsible. Thats one mistake that one wouldn't make again. I served with some
E-7's and commanders that were like that too. They are very lucky they didn't get caught in a fire fight. They'd be "Heros" now. When I cornered one once about how he was treating the men his response, "F_ _ em". That was 5yrs. ago and he has made sure that I am still a E-5. But I got my point across and he got off my men.
Back to the point. Our troops are quickly becomming out gunned and I see no effort to adjust in the near future. Do some research and you will see that many countries are going to the Tavor. Why not the US? And with the current commander and chief we may go back to the bow and arrow. He has every intention to wreck our military.
When Isreal adapted the Tavor the US should have been right with them. Other countries have seen it's effectiveness, but our gov has looked the other way. It ain't much good against an IED but in a firefight it is proven and established. The US clearly dies not have the best small arms in the world anymore.
 

Tavor Assault Rifle - 21st Century                           T.A.R. 21

 

Having learned from extensive combat experience, IMI of Israel developed a bullpup rifle: the Tavor (TAR-21). The Tavor is extremely light, accurate, and reliable (requiring stringent reliability standards to avoid being jammed by the prevalent sand of the Middle East), and has garnered demand among other countries

 

The infantry service weapon selected by the IDF. The Tavor was developed in cooperation with the IDF. High reliability and accuracy under extreme conditions. Increased hit probability during exertion. Compact rifle with a long barrel. Ambidextrous. Advanced and accurate sighting system attached directly to the barrel.

 

 

Model

T.A.R

C.T.A.R

S.T.A.R

Caliber

5.56 mm NATO M193/ M855 ( SS109)

Total length  (mm)

725

640

725

Barrel length  (mm)

460

380

460

Net weight (gr.)

3270

3180

3670 

Integral sight 

Reflex Red Dot

Day Telescop X4 magnification

Muzzle Velocity  (RPM)

910

890

910

Triger Pull (kg)

2.5 - 4.5

 



Edited by Sgt. D - October/12/2009 at 09:48
Take care of Soldiers, Show em how its done and do it with em, Run to the Fight & and hold your ground! I die my men go home! If you're a NCO and this ain't you. GET OUT! GOD BLESS AMERICA!
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Sgt. D View Drop Down
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  Quote Sgt. D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/12/2009 at 09:59
KB your right on the fore front with why things are the same. What burns my biscuts is the Tavor could be built in the same facilities as the M-4 and the M-4 componants could be adapted to a modified version for our troops. Yes there would be parts no longer needed but thats better that a total wash. I hate that dollars are considered above lives but it is part of this country's dark side. Not because the dollars aren't there but because there is some need to study swamp gas in the marshlands.
Take care of Soldiers, Show em how its done and do it with em, Run to the Fight & and hold your ground! I die my men go home! If you're a NCO and this ain't you. GET OUT! GOD BLESS AMERICA!
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jonoMT View Drop Down
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  Quote jonoMT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/12/2009 at 11:38
Well, no question it takes a long time to transition. But you gotta start somewhere. I still think these two incidents were more to do with bad strategy than anything else. Why were these troops put in a position where they had to break their equipment defending themselves?
Clean what's dirty, tighten what's loose, oil what turns and keep all the pieces. - Lyndel Meikle
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  Quote rjtfroggy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/12/2009 at 12:36
 Unemployment in this country is hovering at about 10-15%. Manufacturing is down everywhere you look so why not turn over to a war time enviroment and start making weapons for our troops that work.
 Back in wwII even singer sewing machine converted to making rifles why can't it be done know. Our troops and the war effort need the change. It is time the American people got off their duffs and out of the malls and started demanding the administration get off their's and do what is right.
 We vote every Nov. and it is high time we start electing people who care and are willing to make changes that count.
 It is time we decide either we are going to win this war or we get out and let the middle east do what it does best which is fight among themselves.
 Let Isreal have a go at it CAN YOU SAY MUSHROOM CLOUD and then our troubles would be over as far as the war effort goes.
 Bring our factories back on line developing and making military weapons that work, that solves 2 problems at 1 time. Employment and lousey weapons, and too hell with what the rest of the world thinks.
 
 GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS and MAY THEY KEEP SAFE WHILE DEPLOYED.
froggy
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Kickboxer View Drop Down
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  Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/12/2009 at 12:55
My suggestion is spend some time actually writing letters to your "congressmen".  Get all your family to, make it a family thing every week, get all your friends to, STAND UP and BE HEARD.  Our silence is our defeat and our death...
 
If congress cannot hear you 5x5 over the noise of the minority liberal/socialists, you will get what they want...


Edited by Kickboxer - October/12/2009 at 12:56
Opinion, untempered by fact, is ignorance.
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Sgt. D View Drop Down
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  Quote Sgt. D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/12/2009 at 15:10
Originally posted by Kickboxer

My suggestion is spend some time actually writing letters to your "congressmen".  Get all your family to, make it a family thing every week, get all your friends to, STAND UP and BE HEARD.  Our silence is our defeat and our death...
 
If congress cannot hear you 5x5 over the noise of the minority liberal/socialists, you will get what they want...
 
 
Another Bullseye!
Take care of Soldiers, Show em how its done and do it with em, Run to the Fight & and hold your ground! I die my men go home! If you're a NCO and this ain't you. GET OUT! GOD BLESS AMERICA!
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  Quote SamC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2009 at 12:13
What do you guys think of the Sig 556 and how does it compare to the AR family of rifles?
Sam
“Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who don't"
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RONK View Drop Down
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  Quote RONK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/16/2009 at 14:00
Originally posted by SamC

What do you guys think of the Sig 556 and how does it compare to the AR family of rifles?
Sam
 I've never heard anything negative about one other than the price, and that they are a bit heavy. I'd sure like to wring one out!
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TexasPhotog View Drop Down
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  Quote TexasPhotog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/16/2009 at 15:28
These are not new claims.  A former SEAL taught my riflery class in college.  He'd done two tours in Vietnam, and he hated the M16.  He much preferred the M14/Mini 14 actions for reliability.  He wasn't very jazzed about the 5.56 FMJ round either and called it a poodle shooter.

The men in the remote, poorly supported posts aren't the first soldiers to be hung out as bait and won't be the last.  That's cold comfort to those who have loved ones in that position, but that's war.   
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338LAPUASLAP View Drop Down
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  Quote 338LAPUASLAP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/21/2009 at 08:46

I did not read all the postings but I read the initial one...

 
I can say that we better make something that isn't throw away soon...
 
I do not know statistics very well but it seems to me that McDonalds had to put Hot on the side of coffee for a reason...
 
I don't think we should be issued S.H.I.T. (Standard, Humble, Issued, Trash) at basic and in the field... I have had the honor to be issued many other weapon systems than that of SI but really why should I get something that works or has a better rate of MTBFF (Mean Time Between Feed Failure), or has better quality parts machined vs punched/stamped/ junk forged(their is a difference) pressure vs. unpressured air vacum cast or PVACC and someone who just wanted to do his 4 yrs and do his service that way...I believe everyone should be taught how to operate and maintain "better" issued weaponry...
 
You have to keep em tuned or they won't play the like a symphony when you need em
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