OpticsTalk by SWFA, Inc. Homepage SWFA     SampleList.com
Forum Home Forum Home > Scopes > Rifle Scopes
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Huskemaw & Best of the West
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Visit the SWFA.com site to check out our current specials.

Huskemaw & Best of the West

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 6>
Author
Message
Oldtrader3 View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman
Avatar

Joined: May/16/2009
Location: WA (state)
Status: Offline
Points: 445
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldtrader3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/11/2009 at 23:07
I shoot all year, Washington weather permitting also.  However, the near home gun club range only goes to 200 yards.  So, I practice and practice with rifles ranging from .270 Win up to .340 Wea Mag at 200 yards.  Like JF4545, I have health issues and am waiting to move south to Oregon before elk hunting again.  I don't think my health issues will impede my shooting because I have learned to pace myself.
 
The longest shot that I have ever taken was at a mule deer that, computing by bullet drop was about 425 yards away.  This was not a howling success unfortunately for the poor deer.  Because of faulty range estimation, I broke the deer's lower shoulder and the sternum but did not kill him.  I had to track this deer for two hours and finally kill him.
 
This effort was a fiasco that brought home to me the problems of mountain hunting in swirling wind currents, shooting from one mountain to another, complicated by the animal shifting slightly during the .5 second bullet flight time.  I have killed several deer at around 300 yards with no issues and one shot kills.  That is my practical limit despite having the sub-MOA tools and skills to shoot farther. 
 
I see people at the range constantly who have no business shooting at game over 100 yards away.  Egos notwithstanding, I am sure that some of these shooters will fall for the Huskemaw line and buy one of their overpriced scopes and buy the line of BS being promoted that states "average shooters can kill game at 1000 yards" when they can not reliably kill it at 200 yards with their own scoped rifles.
CDR3
Back to Top
DrewsShootingSports View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper
Avatar

Joined: November/04/2009
Location: OP Kansas
Status: Offline
Points: 18
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrewsShootingSports Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/11/2009 at 23:38
Don't lynch me for this one, guys... I have a respect and appreciation for all of God's creation, which includes animals.  I also have been given (along with all of mankind) dominion over these things.  I don't find it worthwhile to discuss or contemplate "humane" treatment of animals, as the word denotes an ascribed personification, and animals are not humans - we are distinctly different.  That doesn't mean, however, that I don't think that if your motives are to see harm done and pain inflicted that you're not messed up in your head (as would likely be the case). 
I appreciate what Dave Wilson said about 1% hunting and 99% shooting - at what point are you no longer hunting and, rather, simply shooting a target for bragging rights?  I agree that this particular practice is bull corn.  If your game won't let you get within 700 or 1000 yds, then that is still a hunt.  That likely doesn't happen much.  (wouldn't know because I don't hunt big game yet...)
There is, however, the fact that man was created superior to the animals, and has used his gifting to create superior methods of predatory commerce - so why should we not be able to use them?  The next time a bear or a white tail builds a better rifle than mine, I'll accept my loss.
But when you're taking a 1000 yd shot just to say you did it (especially without proper preparation and without necessity), that really cheapens it.  "Oh, look guys, I just shot an elk at 1000 yards who didn't even know I existed, nor did he suspicion it."  That's not very good sport, I guess.  It's target practice.
Back to Top
danjojoUSMC View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman
Avatar

Joined: August/20/2009
Location: NE Ohio
Status: Offline
Points: 329
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote danjojoUSMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/12/2009 at 00:58

Humane does not mean to treat the object the same as a human but to act with compassion....to see the beauty in things other than your own self and show respect.  It's used commonly for animals because it's considered healthy, mature human behavior to show reverence for life.  Most animals will do the same unless they perceive the other life form as a food source or they feel threatened.

"When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be"



"Every part of life comes into focus just as you are about to pull the trigger."
Back to Top
DrewsShootingSports View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper
Avatar

Joined: November/04/2009
Location: OP Kansas
Status: Offline
Points: 18
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrewsShootingSports Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/12/2009 at 07:08
Originally posted by danjojoUSMC danjojoUSMC wrote:

Humane does not mean to treat the object the same as a human but to act with compassion....to see the beauty in things other than your own self and show respect.  It's used commonly for animals because it's considered healthy, mature human behavior to show reverence for life.  Most animals will do the same unless they perceive the other life form as a food source or they feel threatened.


Indeed, after consulting the dictionary to review the definitions of humane, the first of two commonly listed is to act with compassion, respect, etc; and my use was relegated to the second definition (some degree of personification).  Good point, danojojo.  And, semantics aside, this is indeed how I treat God's creation.
Back to Top
8shots View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight
Avatar
Lord Of The Flies

Joined: March/14/2007
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 6253
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8shots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/12/2009 at 07:28
 "Oh, look guys, I just shot an elk at 1000 yards who didn't even know I existed, nor did he suspicion it."  That's not very good sport, I guess.  It's target practice.
 
Now this opens another can of worms. I mostly hunt off driven hunts, either using beaters or dogs, or both. The game certainly knows I am around. So that would make me a fair chase hunter by the above statement? Some guys think not, because I am shooting at moving game.
 Now the object of a walk and stalk is to sneak up on an animal in such a way that he does not know you existed.
The same goes for the ambush style hunt, or sitting in a tree stand or blind. So the only thing separating this style of hunting (walk and stalk or ambush) from the 1000 yarder is distance. Is this wrong? No not at all, the object of a hunt is to make the kill.
This season I sat in an ambush position and a red hartebeest walked straight towards me. When my rangefinder read 200m I put a bullet between his eyes. It felt just like target practise, but was it?
And what distance is a long shot? According to the NRA 600yds. On the one farm we hunt the farmer reckons if you can see them they are within shooting distance!
I shoot a lot myself and have taken animals in excess of 400yds. I took those shots only because it was the only possibilty available. If a nice trophy walks out, I would prefer him to be about 50 yds away.
So, I guess what I am trying to say is that when it comes to hunting, you have to make that kill. Just do it in such a manner that you can live with yourself afterwards.


Edited by 8shots - November/12/2009 at 07:38
Back to Top
DrewsShootingSports View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper
Avatar

Joined: November/04/2009
Location: OP Kansas
Status: Offline
Points: 18
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrewsShootingSports Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/12/2009 at 07:51
Originally posted by 8shots 8shots wrote:


So the only thing separating this style of hunting (walk and stalk or ambush) from the 1000 yarder is distance. Is this wrong? No not at all, the object of a hunt is to make the kill.


Excellent point.  You'll not that I have trouble making a sweeping assertion on this topic, as it would be unwise.  The object is indeed to make the kill, and I am tempted to state that the distance doesn't matter, and that when your game builds a superior weapon and gets you at a greater range, then it can take a victory lap. 

I suppose the only reason I keep from making this assertion is simply that there are folks out there who would be doing some long range animal sniping for some insidious reason, but that too is not likely prevalent.  I've not actually seen much of the Best of the West guys, but I've seen a lot of long range takes on video.  A certain part of my brain says that I know God gave man dominion over all creation, and, as long as he/she is practicing good stewardship of those resources, it doesn't matter at all, because it's an animal.  Maybe that's the line to be drawn. 

BTW, everyone posting here seems to have their heads screwed on pretty straight and are quite congenial.  As a newcomer, I can tell you that it's part of what will keep me in this particular "community".  Thank you all for that.
Back to Top
300S&W View Drop Down
Optics God
Optics God
Avatar

Joined: January/27/2008
Location: Burlington,WV
Status: Offline
Points: 10592
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 300S&W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/12/2009 at 08:21
  I agree with 8.  BUT,and it's only happened to me once,it's NOT fun having someone sending a bullet over your punkin head. Of course they didn't know I was there but that was their problem not mine. We were both after the same animal.
  D,you'll find that we at OT are here because we enjoy the company of each other and those who visit. We also like to help with info and experience when we can. You'll find that 99.9% of the time we have no "problems" because in the past they've been dealt with quick and direct.  Guess we've got a rep for that now. LOL 
  Anyways,THANKS for the compliments and WELCOME aboard!
 
"I ain't got time to bleed!"
Back to Top
RifleDude View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
EVIL OPPRESSOR

Joined: October/13/2006
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 16337
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/12/2009 at 09:35
I believe we get ourselves into quicksand very quickly when we start saying my "hunting methods are superior to yours."  Techniques vary with local laws, customs, terrain, game animal habits and habitat.  In general, as long as it is legal, done in a manner respectful of the quarry and private property, and doesn't portray a slob image of hunting to the public, I have no problem with it. 
 
What I do have a problem with, however, is people kidding themselves about their true abilities and thinking they can just buy gagetry to compensate for lack of experience.  I have a serious problem with people who have such a lack of respect for game animals that they are willing to take chances on low percentage shots and the potential for injury and suffering in exchange for an ego boost.  I certainly do not elevate animals to the level of humans, but I do see them as a natural resource worthy of respect.  We hunters, who pay for the cost of maintaining wildlife resources and habitat through taxes and license sales, collectively own the wild game resources.  When someone doesn't take care to cleanly harvest a game animal and that animal runs off, experiences undue suffering and dies without the meat being used, it not only shows a lack of respect for the animal, but it also robs natural resources from the rest of us. 
 
I think Huskemaw & BOTW are promoting an attitude that encourages shortcuts and severely understates the true challenges and potential pitfalls of extreme long range hunting for the sake of sales.  Their videos makes these shots look too easy and therefore grossly misleads the uninformed novice.  It also sends a bad message to the non-hunting public who vote and therefore have an effect on the future of hunting through regulations.
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.
Back to Top
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 23679
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/12/2009 at 09:50
Very well said, Ted. Pretty much sums it up, for me...
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living
Back to Top
JF4545 View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar

Joined: March/31/2009
Location: Washington
Status: Offline
Points: 2753
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JF4545 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/12/2009 at 11:23
I agree with Ted as well!!! Very well put, all of this just makes me want to try and be a better shooter.....


Edited by JF4545 - November/12/2009 at 11:48
Back to Top
John Barsness View Drop Down
Optics Optimist
Optics Optimist


Joined: January/27/2009
Status: Offline
Points: 785
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Barsness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/12/2009 at 11:35
Since this is a discussion of ethics, one point that should be brought up comes from perhaps the greatest examination of hunting ethics, Jose Ortega y Gasset's book MEDITATIONS ON HUNTING. One of his points is that humans are always superior to the animals we hunt in both brain-power and technology, so the notion of fair chase is an illusion unless humans somehow handicap ourselves.  (This idea of course applies only to so-called "sport" hunting, not survival hunting, in which anything goes as long we bring home food.) 
 
But even when we handicap ourselves, hunting is not an equal contest, in the sense of two evenly-matched football teams. Instead, Ortega y Gasset points out, what we are attempting to do is outwit some of the animal's own survival traits. If we somehow use technology to bypass an animal's natural ways of avoiding being killed, then we are no longer hunting but just killing. Pure killing is pretty easily done, even by humans with very primitive technology. One of the excuses justifications used by modern hunters is that we are engaging with nature, not just trying to kill something.
 
The next question then becomes: Exactly how we are engaging with nature when we shoot an animal so far away that none of its survival instincts are brought into play? This becomes an even more interesting question when the rifle, scope and load are probably used in conjunction with a portable weather station and a computer, whether or not the computer itself or just a print-out of various conditions is carried into the field.
Back to Top
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 23679
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/12/2009 at 11:45
John, excellent points.  What I tried to allude to, but not nearly as eloquently.
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living
Back to Top
John Barsness View Drop Down
Optics Optimist
Optics Optimist


Joined: January/27/2009
Status: Offline
Points: 785
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Barsness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/12/2009 at 11:52

Oretega y Gasset was a very smart man! His small book has never been out of print, and makes very interesting reading for ANY hunter.

If we follow his line of reasoning, then it becomes apparent that whether or not we are capable of an extremely long range shot is irrelevant, at least if we claim to be actually hunting.
 
I suspect part of today's fascination with long-range shooting (which I share, though not much when hunting big game) is the modern tendency toward immedaiet gratification. Obviously we can't become really good long-range shooters without some hard work and mastery of the tools, but a couple of years another writer(!) told me why he shot an elk at 900 yards. "I watched it for four hours and it never moved to where I could stalk it!"
 
Four whole hours! Gee, and I hunted grizzly bears twice in Alaska, for a total of 18 days, before finally getting one at the vast range of 70 yards! I have hunted elk almost as long here in Montana before finally getting a shot at a legal bull on public land. But today we are a hurry-up society, who wants to "git 'er done."
Back to Top
Oldtrader3 View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman
Avatar

Joined: May/16/2009
Location: WA (state)
Status: Offline
Points: 445
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldtrader3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/12/2009 at 12:17
I agree with RifleDude that Huskemaw and BOTW is promoting an attitude bordering on misleading the public and minimizing the challenges of the dedication, knowledge and practice that it requires to be a long range marksman.  I do not have this ability anymore, despite years of experience and constant practice.  This is why I limit my shooting to 300 yards.  A person has to be realistic about one's true abilities.  Ego and ignorance have no place when it omes to long range shooting.
CDR3
Back to Top
JF4545 View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar

Joined: March/31/2009
Location: Washington
Status: Offline
Points: 2753
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JF4545 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/12/2009 at 12:41

This is a breath of fresh air to me to hear the truth from some of you...Its pretty hard to claim one is on a equal playing field with an animal when we have the technology we have today when it comes to hunting...I still hunt, but one really does have to be honest with themselves sooner or later....Many, many hunters will not want to even look at this.. Many of us, myself included sometimes just want the easier softer way when it comes to killing game. Much more could be said, but I simply cannot put it into words..Even being upwind putting a sneak on an animal at any distance and blasting it, has never ever given me a feeling of being one with nature...They are two completely seperate things I feel...Although most hunters probably never care to look into it that much... Thank You John B.

Back to Top
trigger29 View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar
X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ?

Joined: September/29/2007
Location: South Dakota
Status: Offline
Points: 4353
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote trigger29 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/12/2009 at 12:41
They seem to make it look very easy on the BOTW show.....and at the same time, they always slip in a little word about going out and practicing, and checking your equipment in real life, not just a ballistic calculator. They make that point in such a small way on the show though, that it's pretty much overlooked. I can see how an average Joe (not our Average Joe) would think he can just buy a Huskamoo scope and go kill stuff at 1000 yards. I'm sure the guys running the show are excellent marksman, but they need to teach more of that, and advertise their gimmick product less. I remember when they used a Leupy, and hadn't teamed up with Gunwerks yet. They used to try to inform of methods used, and tips. Now they just want to sell scopes.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Back to Top
8shots View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight
Avatar
Lord Of The Flies

Joined: March/14/2007
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 6253
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8shots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/13/2009 at 01:31
I agree 100% with the sentiments expressed above.
Another factor to consider is that hunting is made up of many skills. Tracking, reading the bush, stalking, shooting to name a few. In some cases we use 90% stalking skills and 10% shooting skills. On another hunt we may use only 10% stalking skills and 90% shooting skills. That should not make one hunt more ethical then another??
 
Hunting ethics remain a hot topic. We had such a debate raging back and forth in our local hunting magazine recently. Different hunting methods were touted as being more ethical then the other (walk and stalk versus chasing them with a vehicle in the Kalahari sand dunes for example or driven hunts with beaters v's leopard with dogs etc etc). No-one "won" the debate.
The only undisputed fact that remained was that whatever hunting method a person used, that person must make sure that it leads to a clean kill and show respect towards the animal and life. Killing just for the sake of killing is absolutely taboo, as is making an animal suffer uneccesarily.
 
My worst experiences with fellow hunters have been when they shoot/kill an animal and then laugh about how it fell/reacted etc at impact with the bullet etc. That makes me sick to the stomach.


Edited by 8shots - November/13/2009 at 01:46
Back to Top
Oldtrader3 View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman
Avatar

Joined: May/16/2009
Location: WA (state)
Status: Offline
Points: 445
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldtrader3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/13/2009 at 09:17
Don't watch the Outdoor Channel then.  The TeeVee hotshots with their bows don't exhibit a lot of respect for anything but the horns of the deer that they shoot in such great numbers.  Actually I get a little tired of watching these goateed clowns kill so many animals for their TeeVee ratings and careers but not for any apparent appreciation of sportsmanship or hunting except the ability to sit in a stand that a production assistant built for them.  I wonder how anti-hunters feel about these shows.

Edited by Oldtrader3 - November/13/2009 at 09:20
CDR3
Back to Top
supertool73 View Drop Down
Optics God
Optics God
Avatar
Superstool

Joined: January/03/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 11814
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/13/2009 at 10:39
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Let's forget shooter skill for a minute.  The fact is, the average out of the box, sporter weight factory rifle IS NOT INHERENTLY ACCURATE ENOUGH to ethically attempt an 800 - 1000 yd shot at a game animal!  Even a true 1 MOA rifle IS NOT ACCURATE ENOUGH (occasional 1" groups don't qualify either)!!!  Consider that with a 1 MOA rifle, the conical dispersion from POA is a bit over 10" in diameter at 1000 yds... BEST CASE!  Factor in wind, unpredictable animal movements, an imperfect rest, awkward shooting position, and shooter error in with the rifle's limitations, and a hit in the vitals is a low probability.  That is simply unacceptable when your target is a live animal!  Huskemaw and the Best of the West is actively promoting this type of thinking to hunters who don't know better.


One other thing to account for is your ammo.  You may have a gun and a round that will shot 1 MOA at 100 yards.  But say your ammo has an average 50 fps spread which I dare bet a lot of hunting ammo does.  Maybe not even that good.  I have not tested this myself as I have not shot near enough long range to know.  But was told by a knowledgeable man that 10 fps can cause a 3" poi difference at 1000 yards.  So if you have a bullet with 50 fps avg spread that could cause 15" POI change ontop of your already 10" 1moa rifle.  I realize 1000 yards is the extreme end of things.  But you will need some near perfect benchrest quality handloaded ammo to realistically make those kinds of shots consistantly not some store bought hunting ammo.
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."
Back to Top
danjojoUSMC View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman
Avatar

Joined: August/20/2009
Location: NE Ohio
Status: Offline
Points: 329
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote danjojoUSMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/13/2009 at 12:07
And if they did a lot of shooting the last time they was at the range, then went home and cleaned the crap out of the gun....now they shoot that one cold shot expecting it to match the drops in practice and go where the last 20 rounds did at that range without fouling the bore.
 
 
"When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be"



"Every part of life comes into focus just as you are about to pull the trigger."
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 6>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.238 seconds.