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Huskemaw & Best of the West

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Ghost Rider View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ghost Rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/13/2009 at 14:22
I started shooting a lot when I was a little younger to better my odds when hunting. Now I'm addicted to shooting long range. My equipment is geared towards it- my scopes, my rifles, my LRF, and my reloading equipment. Even my job as an Army Sniper...it's what I love to do, and "YES" I do get some gratification out of knowing I have a much greater stand off distance then almost anybody on the battlefield or on the hunting lands. I agree 100% that most folks have no business lobbing rounds at animals at extended distances and that the BOTW guys are just trying to sell a product (since John Burns left that is) in their info-mercial shows. However, I gotta laugh when somebody says something to the likes of " You shouldn't shoot game at over xxx yardage!". You are intitalled to your opinion, but it's probably sanctioned by your limits. I also agree with the others that talk about the guys who can't shoot for sh*t. Since we are giving out opinions, I think you should have to pass a qualification of some sort to get a hunting license! I put in a lot of time, effort, and money to ensure that I am the best I can be. I went on my first elk hunt last year and got a nice 5X5 @ well over 800 yards. I had seen no less then 9 hunters cross that meadow in the 3 hours I sat overwatch on a ridge(sat there three days). The conditions were right and I was ready. One dead elk. I had a huge advantage over those guys. They were just walking around aimlessly and taking pop shots at the game they jumped. I could argue about how idiotic that looks to me. Am I saying I'm the man and never miss? Of course not, but what I'm saying is that I know my limits and will only take a shot I know I can make and pass up those that I have doubt in. I practice almost every day with my bow to ranges out to 70 yards (makes the close ones seem easy) and passed on a BIG buck a couple days ago because he was moving a little faster then I liked.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/13/2009 at 14:36
I do not have very strong opinions on the subject of long range hunting aside from a simple statement that people who embark on it better be exceptionally good marksmen.

One thing that I do not see discussed very often is bullet flight time.  How far has the target moved while the bullet was in flight?  For most big game rounds it takes a bit over a second to make it out to 800 yards.

I would have to think that adds an additional element of risk.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roy Finn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/13/2009 at 14:44
That was one of the points I made here regarding flight time and not being able to predict what a live animal will do at "lift off". That fact alone negates any claims shooting prowess as far as I'm concerned. No harm in wounding a paper target though. Live game is another story.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 300S&W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/13/2009 at 14:48
  EXACTLY!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JF4545 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/13/2009 at 15:05
Originally posted by Roy Finn Roy Finn wrote:

That was one of the points I made here regarding flight time and not being able to predict what a live animal will do at "lift off". That fact alone negates any claims shooting prowess as far as I'm concerned. No harm in wounding a paper target though. Live game is another story.
 
I have to agree with Roy's thinking as well!
 


Edited by JF4545 - November/13/2009 at 15:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ghost Rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/13/2009 at 17:03
OK, then maybe I should stop bow hunting as well. I've had a perfectly calm deer at 30yards jump the string and cause my shot to wound it and trailed it for about 400 yards and loose blood.
 
Or is that apples and oranges??? I really don't think so.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ghost Rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/13/2009 at 17:05
Or was that too far a shot with a bow...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jonoMT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/13/2009 at 17:22
Lots of good points have been made and this is a thought provoking topic. I don't have a problem with the concept of long-range hunting but seriously doubt there are very many shooters qualified to do it. I also doubt that those scopes and rifles are going to make a difference vs. lots of range time, a sub-MOA rifle, meticulous handloads, and a rock-solid scope when it comes to tracking. What I've borrowed from those folks and sites that promote the concept - like LRH - is the information and techniques to make my shooting at what they would consider short range - 0 to 400 yards - more ethical and reliable.

I shoot and hunt with a .308 so that right there is a limitation in terms of flight time and impact. I haven't done enough target shooting in heavy or variable winds either. So while I shoot as often as I can out to 600 yards (and occasionally beyond) that's just to make shots under 400 yards (or 300 yards if it's blowing up to 10 mph or 200 if it's windier than that) more natural to make. On two days this year under sunny skies, I shot an antelope @ 200 yards with maybe a 10mph wind and a mule deer doe @ 330 with no more than a 5mph wind. In both cases, those rounds went right where I intended and the animals dropped quickly - the antelope in his tracks and the doe ran 20 yards at most.

Wind is the biggest limitation to me because even if I did have a wind meter it would only tell me what the wind is like where I am. I can only eyeball the grass and nearby trees over there to guess what the wind will be like. If it was blowing harder than 10 mph, I just wouldn't have taken that shot. That, in combination with other limitations, means that it is very unlikely that the typical hunter can make those shots. I know that I am limited by flight time, bullet weight and distance. A bullet @ 400 yards is not the same bullet it was @ 200 yards in terms of accuracy or lethality. Given the exact same conditions all along its flight path,  @ 400 yards it will have dropped another 14" (requiring reliable turrets or holdover), drifted another 10", and will have lost a quarter of the energy it had @ 200. Additionally, any imperfections in the load, differences in barometric pressure, temperature, and shooting characteristics of the barrel will be magnified.

In general, I think if you live in a state like Montana, any shot under 300 yards should be within your ability to make. If you don't do illegal stuff like use radios and are willing and able to hoof it into the backcountry (disabled folks excepted) and only take shots you are reasonably certain to make, then why not be prepared to make them? If I can, I'll get as close as possible but if not, I'll try to determine whether a longer shot is in the cards.

Next year, if I first do a lot of shooting on hellishly windy days and find that my new Premier 3-15X50 helps make it comfortable for me to take reliable shots out to the 400-500 yard range I might consider taking a shot on an antelope at that range. I'll still be on a .308 though and I'll never lug that rifle around in the mountains so I won't be trying to kill an elk or a mule deer buck with it.
Reaction time is a factor...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/13/2009 at 17:23
Ghost Rider, all I can say is "thank you for your service".  I have no problem with one with the knowledge and skills taking the long range shot.  As I said, if I ever reach the situation where I know I can't make the stalk and I really WANT the game, I'm taking the shot and know I am likely to make it.  If one does not have the skill, don't take the shot. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 300S&W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/13/2009 at 17:27
Originally posted by Ghost Rider Ghost Rider wrote:

Or was that too far a shot with a bow...
 
 
  Having an animal jump the string is one thing a bowhunter needs to realize can happen before he takes it up.  They can try to negate it by holding low but even that's not 100% reliable. Even at 10yds.  But having the possibilty of an animal moving during a bullets time of flight can only be negated in one way. You gotta get closer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JF4545 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/13/2009 at 17:33
Get Your Popcorn ReadyMmmm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ghost Rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/13/2009 at 17:35
So you are saying that if the deer wasn't closer the effects of his movement can't be nagated...the same as if it were a bullet at longer range?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote danjojoUSMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/13/2009 at 17:41
were you using man fingers or a release?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave Wilson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/13/2009 at 17:42
Originally posted by Ghost Rider Ghost Rider wrote:

However, I gotta laugh when somebody says something to the likes of " You shouldn't shoot game at over xxx yardage!". You are intitalled to your opinion, but it's probably sanctioned by your limits. 
 
A-men ghost rider! this is what i was trying to say in my earlier post. everyone has their limits and just because someone else has a greater distance for his limit, doesn't make him unethical. i've been on hunting sites that if you talk about taking a shot at a deer over 200 yards, you'll basically catch hell. on the other side of the spectrum, i have watched deer taken at over a mile. these boys don't like to set up to shoot at distances of 7-800, as it's just too boring, no challenge.
  i enjoy hunting at long range, i shot my turkey at 850 yards this year. is this kind of hunting (long range) for everyone? certainly not. just because it doesn't fall into "your" idea of what distance is ethical, doesn't mean it's OK to point the finger at those that do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roy Finn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/13/2009 at 17:47
Originally posted by Ghost Rider Ghost Rider wrote:

OK, then maybe I should stop bow hunting as well. I've had a perfectly calm deer at 30yards jump the string and cause my shot to wound it and trailed it for about 400 yards and loose blood.
 

Or is that apples and oranges??? I really don't think so.


Honestly, I don't think that is a fair comparison cause that is a fairly typical reaction during bow hunting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldtrader3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/13/2009 at 18:23
Ghost Rider, Hmmm, downgraded Bronze Star, Article 15, Section 8, are you still in the Army?  I am puzzled that a Section 8 would be a working sniper?  Plus, they don't downgrade Bronze Stars very often.
 
Pertaining to your comments, many of the people on this forum have shot long range competition and/or civilian 600/1000 yard matches.  Note, one the members of a long range club just sounded in.  We mostly have been shooting for longish periods of time and are ethically concerned with practical limits and humane practices.  We choose to not shoot over a practical limit.  This is not the same as the once a year hunters who wang away at every animal they see.  Please don't patronise us.
 
If we choose not to shoot at over 400 yards, it could be hunting ethics concerns because deer and elk do not have a Medical Corpsman waiting to save their lives.  If animals are wounded, they mostly crawl off to die a lingering death.  Shooting for wartime needs, in order to disable or kill an enemy soldier, is different then shooting or hunting for recreation where you have and ethical obligation to kill that animal humanely and quickly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 300S&W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/13/2009 at 18:24
  If when bowhunting a deer at 5,10,20yds(whatever range your comfortable shooting at)and anticipate it jumping the string,as you always should,holding low is about all you can do to avoid a miss or worse a wounding.  But if rifle hunting,what can you do to eliminate the possiblity that that animal will move during your bullets time of flight thereby missing the kill zone?  Or how can you eliminate the variable of the bullet taking too much time to reach the kill zone before that animal moves?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/13/2009 at 18:27
Originally posted by Oldtrader3 Oldtrader3 wrote:

Ghost Rider, Hmmm, downgraded Bronze Star, Article 15, Section 8, are you still in the Army?  I am puzzled that a Section 8 would be a working sniper?  Plus, they don't downgrade Bronze Stars very often.
 
Pertaining to your comments, many of the people on this forum have shot long range competition and/or civilian 600/1000 yard matches.  Note, one the members of a long range club just sounded in.  We mostly have been shooting for longish periods of time and are ethically concerned with practical limits and humane practices.  We choose to not shoot over a practical limit.  This is not the same as the once a year hunters who wang away at every animal they see.  Please don't patronise us.
 
If we choose not to shoot at over 400 yards, it could be hunting ethics concerns because deer and elk do not have a Medical Corpsman waiting to save their lives.  If animals are wounded, they mostly crawl off to die a lingering death.  Shooting for wartime needs, in order to disable or kill an enemy soldier, is different then shooting or hunting for recreation where you have and ethical obligation to kill that animal humanely and quickly.
Yo, brother...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/13/2009 at 19:05
Originally posted by Ghost Rider Ghost Rider wrote:

I started shooting a lot when I was a little younger to better my odds when hunting. Now I'm addicted to shooting long range. My equipment is geared towards it- my scopes, my rifles, my LRF, and my reloading equipment. Even my job as an Army Sniper...it's what I love to do, and "YES" I do get some gratification out of knowing I have a much greater stand off distance then almost anybody on the battlefield or on the hunting lands. I agree 100% that most folks have no business lobbing rounds at animals at extended distances and that the BOTW guys are just trying to sell a product (since John Burns left that is) in their info-mercial shows. However, I gotta laugh when somebody says something to the likes of " You shouldn't shoot game at over xxx yardage!". You are intitalled to your opinion, but it's probably sanctioned by your limits. I also agree with the others that talk about the guys who can't shoot for sh*t. Since we are giving out opinions, I think you should have to pass a qualification of some sort to get a hunting license! I put in a lot of time, effort, and money to ensure that I am the best I can be. I went on my first elk hunt last year and got a nice 5X5 @ well over 800 yards. I had seen no less then 9 hunters cross that meadow in the 3 hours I sat overwatch on a ridge(sat there three days). The conditions were right and I was ready. One dead elk. I had a huge advantage over those guys. They were just walking around aimlessly and taking pop shots at the game they jumped. I could argue about how idiotic that looks to me. Am I saying I'm the man and never miss? Of course not, but what I'm saying is that I know my limits and will only take a shot I know I can make and pass up those that I have doubt in. I practice almost every day with my bow to ranges out to 70 yards (makes the close ones seem easy) and passed on a BIG buck a couple days ago because he was moving a little faster then I liked.


Were you named "Sniper13" in another life.


I lack the interest or time to address this, someone else is welcome to.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldtrader3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/13/2009 at 19:24
+!, Kickboxer, Rancid Coolaid, me, too!

Edited by Oldtrader3 - November/13/2009 at 20:04
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