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Goodbye Guns&Ammo, good riddance

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scooter65 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scooter65 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2011 at 06:42
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

Am taking recommendations for a new subscription.


victoria secret, I never been disappointed and the reviews by Ed are always spot on.
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What you describe in your rant RC is just an adjustment to your expectations.  When I get magazines I expect there to be BS and slanted reviews in the magazines.  I filter it out and search for the good articles, look for product announcements and pics.  Do I really value the reviews, just enough to get a small bit of starter data.  It's still a lot cheaper than buying them randomly from the newstands.  It is too bad they have become what they are now, whores to the advertisers with little to no accuracy. 


Edited by scooter65 - January/31/2011 at 06:51
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Steelbenz View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steelbenz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2011 at 22:54
Kimbers, you show your friends at the gun club..... Glocks are what you show your enemies!   LOL!
"Don't argue with a fool! From a distance you can't really tell who's who!"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SVT_Tactical Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/01/2011 at 07:07
Originally posted by Steelbenz Steelbenz wrote:

Kimbers, you show your friends at the gun club..... Glocks are what you show your enemies!   LOL!
Tell CFII thatWink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FireEMT5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/01/2011 at 08:10
Another vote for rifle shooter.  My Guns and Ammo just ran out too and won't be getting renewed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/01/2011 at 08:49
To clarify: I did not say Kimber handguns were crap.  I did say their quality has slipped a bit and their price has continued to rise (same with Leupold optics.)  I own several Kimbers and have had mostly good things to say of them. (One had problems feeding, smith had to move the mag catch up a wee bit and clean up the throat and feed ramp, now it will cycle a mag of empty cases.)

I think I'll try Rifle Shooter.

And this isn't about my hating advertising, it is entirely about paying for a magazine that evaluates gear based on something other than the performance of the gear.

Maybe I should start my own magazine.


Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SD Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/01/2011 at 09:38
Higher prices & lower quality, seems to be the common path today.  The exceptions are few. 

If it wasn't for receiving American Rifleman with my membership, don't know what I would subscribe too.  Had Peterson Hunting, not the same kind of magazine, but after a makeover, the substance wasn't there.  Anymore I find online what I'm looking for.

You can write for the OT.  Save you the publishing costs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SVT_Tactical Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/01/2011 at 09:45
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

To clarify: I did not say Kimber handguns were crap.  I did say their quality has slipped a bit and their price has continued to rise (same with Leupold optics.)  I own several Kimbers and have had mostly good things to say of them. (One had problems feeding, smith had to move the mag catch up a wee bit and clean up the throat and feed ramp, now it will cycle a mag of empty cases.)

I think I'll try Rifle Shooter.

And this isn't about my hating advertising, it is entirely about paying for a magazine that evaluates gear based on something other than the performance of the gear.

Maybe I should start my own magazine.


You'd piss to many advertisers offBucky  They can't handle the truff
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/01/2011 at 09:53
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

To clarify: I did not say Kimber handguns were crap.  I did say their quality has slipped a bit and their price has continued to rise (same with Leupold optics.)  I own several Kimbers and have had mostly good things to say of them. (One had problems feeding, smith had to move the mag catch up a wee bit and clean up the throat and feed ramp, now it will cycle a mag of empty cases.)

I think I'll try Rifle Shooter.

And this isn't about my hating advertising, it is entirely about paying for a magazine that evaluates gear based on something other than the performance of the gear.

Maybe I should start my own magazine.



i think you will like rifle shooter, david fortier does excellent articles on military stuff, they arent afraid to try stuff out there.
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/01/2011 at 10:02
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

And this isn't about my hating advertising, it is entirely about paying for a magazine that evaluates gear based on something other than the performance of the gear.
 
But unfortunately, the latter is often a byproduct of the former.
 
You're gonna have that to one degree or another with pretty much all gun magazines. 
 
On Kimber, I for one didn't take what you said as a total indictment on Kimber. 
My point is that your assessment that quality has slipped is not universally held, so if a gun scribe praises a product that you don't have a good opinion of, it may not mean they are concealing any warts.  They may have indeed tested a great specimen.  Have you seen some of the complaints on the original Kimber of Oregon wares?  I've heard of the same Kimber QC complaints online, but I've heard of far fewer issues with current generation Kimbers than the original K of O M89 rifles.  The problem with online testimonials is you never know whether they're all first hand or repeated from what someone else said.  I've seen numerous examples of people slamming stuff they have no experience with, so unless someone articulates their negative experience well and backs it up with pics, I take most of what I read with many grains of salt.  Negative reports spread faster than positive, and negative press on high $ guns spread even faster.  I've owned and used good and not so good Kimber products, but I can say the same about several other brands as well.   
 
I agree with your Leupold assessment for the most part as it pertains to pricing.  Like most companies, they're good at certain things, not so good at others.  If you stay away from all the bells and whistles and just look at their "bread and butter" VX3 hunting scopes, I couldn't disagree more though.  I don't see how anyone can honestly evaluate a new gen VX3 1.75-6X32, 2.5-8X36, or 3.5-10X40 and not come to the conclusion they're the best "Vari / VX" scopes Leupy has ever made.  I am no Leupy fan and am not loyal to any brand, but I honestly think they compete favorably with Zeiss Conquest, and are less expensive.  At $400 - $450 retail, I think pricing on these particular models are very fair for what you get and in line with competing scopes in this class.
Ted


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pyro6999 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/01/2011 at 10:22
i wouldnt argue that about leupold either ted. im thinking i will buy my boys each one for their first deer rifles. 2.5x8 vx3's should be perfect for them.
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/01/2011 at 10:48
"All generalizations are bad, even this one."

I haven't used a Leupold optic since the old days of the Mk4 Ultra.

I have never used a Kimber rifle, my only experiences with Kimber have been with 1911s.


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Equality is something you whine about not being given.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/01/2011 at 10:55
i would stay away from the 8400's, ive heard nothing but good about the 84m and 84L though
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jonoMT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/01/2011 at 11:44
Carrying advertising about any products a publication writes about has always created a conflict of interest. Heck, what can you trust besides Consumer Reports or sources like the OT. We're fortunate that CF & SWFA provide this site and don't interfere with what's said. I'd guess that there are certain optics that get recommended here that don't carry as much profit margin as others or manufacturers who don't like what gets said sometimes. Ultimately though, it's in everybody's best interest to promote the truth.
Reaction time is a factor...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/01/2011 at 12:12
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:


I have never used a Kimber rifle, my only experiences with Kimber have been with 1911s.
 
I'm really referring to both, as both have been widely maligned... and I have both, albeit only 1 Kimber 1911.  Judging by all the drama surrounding their 1911s, I must have been lucky with mine, as it both functions flawlessly and shoots extremely well.  I had a tough courtship with my 84 rifle, but I finally found a load recipe it likes pretty well so now we're getting along much better.  If it wasn't so damned beautiful, I wouldn't have hung in there with her so long, but I was seduced by her charms.  My K of O M82 .22 has been sublime in every way, both in quality of execution and accuracy.
 
If you haven't used a Leupold optic since the Mk4 Ultra, then why do you doggedly pan their entire product line with a broad paintbrush every time one of their scopes is included in a discussion and assume their quality has slipped?  I love ya (in a non homo sorta way) and I'm not picking on you.  I'm genuinely curious.  I could hardly be accused of worshiping at the Altar of the Golden Ring myself, and I'm turned off by Leupy's marketing b.s., but I gotta give credit where credit is due. 
 
I've noticed that whenever a gun writer praises something we personally dislike for whatever reason, we tend to suspect they're paid shills, yet if the same praise is heaped on wares we do like, the same writers suddenly get a huge credibility boost.  I'm referring to normal products with decent reputations for giving the customer an honest value, not the obvious snake oil crap like Countersniper.  That isn't a commentary on you, Jeff, as much as the shooting community as a whole.
 
I've long ago become irritated by the "reviews" in gun rags, but I look at 'em for what they are -- escapist entertainment that also serves as a medium for providing pics and specs on gear I haven't handled yet. 
Ted


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JF4545 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/01/2011 at 15:27
I Love my Kimber 8400 Super America!Big GrinBig GrinBig GrinBig Grin


Edited by JF4545 - February/01/2011 at 15:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JF4545 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/01/2011 at 15:43
I kinda like American Rifleman too.  Son got it for me for X-Mas and NRA before that... I mostly just find articles I want to read and buy whatever though... There are no brands of anything that mean that much to me really.. I wish I knew the perfect scope for my new Savage 17 hmr though...Guess thats a different thread though.....
 
This has been an interesting thread Jeff. I always like to hear your point of view on things. It helps keep ones mind open, you have always been a big help to me as well.....Ted Too...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/01/2011 at 15:55
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:


I have never used a Kimber rifle, my only experiences with Kimber have been with 1911s.
 
I'm really referring to both, as both have been widely maligned... and I have both, albeit only 1 Kimber 1911.  Judging by all the drama surrounding their 1911s, I must have been lucky with mine, as it both functions flawlessly and shoots extremely well.  I had a tough courtship with my 84 rifle, but I finally found a load recipe it likes pretty well so now we're getting along much better.  If it wasn't so damned beautiful, I wouldn't have hung in there with her so long, but I was seduced by her charms.  My K of O M82 .22 has been sublime in every way, both in quality of execution and accuracy.
 
If you haven't used a Leupold optic since the Mk4 Ultra, then why do you doggedly pan their entire product line with a broad paintbrush every time one of their scopes is included in a discussion and assume their quality has slipped?  I love ya (in a non homo sorta way) and I'm not picking on you.  I'm genuinely curious.  I could hardly be accused of worshiping at the Altar of the Golden Ring myself, and I'm turned off by Leupy's marketing b.s., but I gotta give credit where credit is due. 
 
I've noticed that whenever a gun writer praises something we personally dislike for whatever reason, we tend to suspect they're paid shills, yet if the same praise is heaped on wares we do like, the same writers suddenly get a huge credibility boost.  I'm referring to normal products with decent reputations for giving the customer an honest value, not the obvious snake oil crap like Countersniper.  That isn't a commentary on you, Jeff, as much as the shooting community as a whole.
 
I've long ago become irritated by the "reviews" in gun rags, but I look at 'em for what they are -- escapist entertainment that also serves as a medium for providing pics and specs on gear I haven't handled yet. 

Maybe "I haven't OWNED" would have been more accurate.  I didn't own the Ultras, but broke a few and lost the love.  Since then, I have used a few (helping friends with guns) and have been around many.  I have been genuinely disappointed in the glass quality and the repeatability I have seen in those I have used.  I looked at many Leupold optics over the years and have often said I hope to find one worthy of my money someday.  (I tend to hunt with A dedicated hunting rifles with best glass I can get, or B. tactical rigs in which I am supremely confident), neither lends itself well to a Leupold acquisition.


I own a few Kimber pistols, one is among their first custom shop guns (when there really was a custom shop) and it is an extremely great handgun.  Those since have had varying degrees of greatness.  My latest had issues from the beginning. 


 I have lost some respect for both companies because they save money (cut costs) by cheapening manufacturing.  I understand both are for-profit companies and profit is what keeps them going; however, I despise the "short-term" market mentality that permeates most companies today.  Both lower costs while increasing prices, I don't care for that business model.


My nail in the coffin for G&A, as I said, was the lovefest with CounterSniper and Greybull.  I get that "Leupold pays the bills", but at some point the information becomes dishonest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/03/2011 at 10:00
Jeff, I generally agree with your sentiment, but I doubt you will find any magazines that are much better.  I found rifle shooter to be not much better.  I no longer subscribe to any print magazines, although I do subscribe to electronic versions of Rifle and Handloader.  They have enough stuff on reloading to make it worth my while.
As far as scopes go, I have seen very little in major gun magazines on the subject of optics that worth reading.
I do disagree with one phrase from your original post though: Kimber makes a decent (but unusually failure-prone) 1911.  What do you mean by "unusually failure prone"? With my admittedly limited experience with 1911s, there is nothing unusual about them being failure prone.

ILya
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/03/2011 at 15:38
OK.  I went ahead and located the aforementioned issue of G&A and read it during lunch.

Being an optics guy, I paid special attention to the Leupold article.  While I will discuss it in more detail (with quotes) later on, I have a question for RC: since the guy who wrote it claims (I think) to have served in the Marine Corp, is it a common occurence to let idiots serve?  After reading the article I hae to conclude that there are three possibilities:
Option1: he is a liar
Option 2: he is a blithering idiot
Option 3: he has never seen a gun and/or riflescope before

If he has served in the Marine Corp, it is either option 1 or 2.

ILya
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/03/2011 at 16:03
Which Leupold article?


Craig Boddington is a Marine, many Marines know little about optics or even marksmanship, and - it seems, some are willing to bend the truth to make a paycheck.

Integrity has a price - or so it seems with Craig.
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