Visit the SWFA.com site to check out our current specials. |
Goodbye Guns&Ammo, good riddance |
Post Reply | Page <123> |
Author | ||
scooter65
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: December/29/2006 Location: mi Status: Offline Points: 3567 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
.
What you describe in your rant RC is just an adjustment to your expectations. When I get magazines I expect there to be BS and slanted reviews in the magazines. I filter it out and search for the good articles, look for product announcements and pics. Do I really value the reviews, just enough to get a small bit of starter data. It's still a lot cheaper than buying them randomly from the newstands. It is too bad they have become what they are now, whores to the advertisers with little to no accuracy. Edited by scooter65 - January/31/2011 at 06:51 |
||
Steelbenz
Optics Jedi Knight ROLL TIDE ROLL Joined: January/03/2006 Location: Heart of Dixie Status: Offline Points: 5153 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Kimbers, you show your friends at the gun club..... Glocks are what you show your enemies! LOL!
|
||
"Don't argue with a fool! From a distance you can't really tell who's who!"
|
||
SVT_Tactical
MODERATOR Chief Sackscratch Joined: December/17/2009 Location: NorthCackalacky Status: Offline Points: 31233 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
|
||
FireEMT5
Optics Journeyman Joined: September/07/2010 Location: S.E. Minnesota Status: Offline Points: 317 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Another vote for rifle shooter. My Guns and Ammo just ran out too and won't be getting renewed.
|
||
Rancid Coolaid
MODERATOR Joined: January/19/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9318 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
To clarify: I did not say Kimber handguns were crap. I did say their quality has slipped a bit and their price has continued to rise (same with Leupold optics.) I own several Kimbers and have had mostly good things to say of them. (One had problems feeding, smith had to move the mag catch up a wee bit and clean up the throat and feed ramp, now it will cycle a mag of empty cases.)
I think I'll try Rifle Shooter. And this isn't about my hating advertising, it is entirely about paying for a magazine that evaluates gear based on something other than the performance of the gear. Maybe I should start my own magazine. |
||
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn. Equality is something you whine about not being given. |
||
SD Dog
Optics Master Extraordinaire OT Scratching Post Joined: February/28/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4177 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Higher prices & lower quality, seems to be the common path today. The exceptions are few.
If it wasn't for receiving American Rifleman with my membership, don't know what I would subscribe too. Had Peterson Hunting, not the same kind of magazine, but after a makeover, the substance wasn't there. Anymore I find online what I'm looking for. You can write for the OT. Save you the publishing costs. |
||
If nobody ever said anything unless he knew what he was talking about, a ghastly hush would descend upon the earth. AP Herbert
Stupidity & ignorance have been the foundation for many certainties. |
||
SVT_Tactical
MODERATOR Chief Sackscratch Joined: December/17/2009 Location: NorthCackalacky Status: Offline Points: 31233 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
|
||
pyro6999
Optics Retard OT TITAN Joined: December/22/2006 Location: North Dakota Status: Offline Points: 22034 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
i think you will like rifle shooter, david fortier does excellent articles on military stuff, they arent afraid to try stuff out there. |
||
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead" 343 we will never forget God Bless Chris Ledoux "good ride cowboy" |
||
RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
But unfortunately, the latter is often a byproduct of the former.
You're gonna have that to one degree or another with pretty much all gun magazines.
On Kimber, I for one didn't take what you said as a total indictment on Kimber.
My point is that your assessment that quality has slipped is not universally held, so if a gun scribe praises a product that you don't have a good opinion of, it may not mean they are concealing any warts. They may have indeed tested a great specimen. Have you seen some of the complaints on the original Kimber of Oregon wares? I've heard of the same Kimber QC complaints online, but I've heard of far fewer issues with current generation Kimbers than the original K of O M89 rifles. The problem with online testimonials is you never know whether they're all first hand or repeated from what someone else said. I've seen numerous examples of people slamming stuff they have no experience with, so unless someone articulates their negative experience well and backs it up with pics, I take most of what I read with many grains of salt. Negative reports spread faster than positive, and negative press on high $ guns spread even faster. I've owned and used good and not so good Kimber products, but I can say the same about several other brands as well.
I agree with your Leupold assessment for the most part as it pertains to pricing. Like most companies, they're good at certain things, not so good at others. If you stay away from all the bells and whistles and just look at their "bread and butter" VX3 hunting scopes, I couldn't disagree more though. I don't see how anyone can honestly evaluate a new gen VX3 1.75-6X32, 2.5-8X36, or 3.5-10X40 and not come to the conclusion they're the best "Vari / VX" scopes Leupy has ever made. I am no Leupy fan and am not loyal to any brand, but I honestly think they compete favorably with Zeiss Conquest, and are less expensive. At $400 - $450 retail, I think pricing on these particular models are very fair for what you get and in line with competing scopes in this class. |
||
Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
||
pyro6999
Optics Retard OT TITAN Joined: December/22/2006 Location: North Dakota Status: Offline Points: 22034 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
i wouldnt argue that about leupold either ted. im thinking i will buy my boys each one for their first deer rifles. 2.5x8 vx3's should be perfect for them.
|
||
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead" 343 we will never forget God Bless Chris Ledoux "good ride cowboy" |
||
Rancid Coolaid
MODERATOR Joined: January/19/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9318 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
"All generalizations are bad, even this one."
I haven't used a Leupold optic since the old days of the Mk4 Ultra. I have never used a Kimber rifle, my only experiences with Kimber have been with 1911s. |
||
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn. Equality is something you whine about not being given. |
||
pyro6999
Optics Retard OT TITAN Joined: December/22/2006 Location: North Dakota Status: Offline Points: 22034 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
i would stay away from the 8400's, ive heard nothing but good about the 84m and 84L though
|
||
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead" 343 we will never forget God Bless Chris Ledoux "good ride cowboy" |
||
jonoMT
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: November/13/2008 Location: Montana Status: Offline Points: 4853 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Carrying advertising about any products a publication writes about has always created a conflict of interest. Heck, what can you trust besides Consumer Reports or sources like the OT. We're fortunate that CF & SWFA provide this site and don't interfere with what's said. I'd guess that there are certain optics that get recommended here that don't carry as much profit margin as others or manufacturers who don't like what gets said sometimes. Ultimately though, it's in everybody's best interest to promote the truth.
|
||
Reaction time is a factor...
|
||
RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I'm really referring to both, as both have been widely maligned... and I have both, albeit only 1 Kimber 1911. Judging by all the drama surrounding their 1911s, I must have been lucky with mine, as it both functions flawlessly and shoots extremely well. I had a tough courtship with my 84 rifle, but I finally found a load recipe it likes pretty well so now we're getting along much better. If it wasn't so damned beautiful, I wouldn't have hung in there with her so long, but I was seduced by her charms. My K of O M82 .22 has been sublime in every way, both in quality of execution and accuracy.
If you haven't used a Leupold optic since the Mk4 Ultra, then why do you doggedly pan their entire product line with a broad paintbrush every time one of their scopes is included in a discussion and assume their quality has slipped? I love ya (in a non homo sorta way) and I'm not picking on you. I'm genuinely curious. I could hardly be accused of worshiping at the Altar of the Golden Ring myself, and I'm turned off by Leupy's marketing b.s., but I gotta give credit where credit is due.
I've noticed that whenever a gun writer praises something we personally dislike for whatever reason, we tend to suspect they're paid shills, yet if the same praise is heaped on wares we do like, the same writers suddenly get a huge credibility boost. I'm referring to normal products with decent reputations for giving the customer an honest value, not the obvious snake oil crap like Countersniper. That isn't a commentary on you, Jeff, as much as the shooting community as a whole.
I've long ago become irritated by the "reviews" in gun rags, but I look at 'em for what they are -- escapist entertainment that also serves as a medium for providing pics and specs on gear I haven't handled yet.
|
||
Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
||
JF4545
Optics Master Joined: March/31/2009 Location: Washington Status: Offline Points: 2753 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I Love my Kimber 8400 Super America! Edited by JF4545 - February/01/2011 at 15:31 |
||
JF4545
Optics Master Joined: March/31/2009 Location: Washington Status: Offline Points: 2753 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I kinda like American Rifleman too. Son got it for me for X-Mas and NRA before that... I mostly just find articles I want to read and buy whatever though... There are no brands of anything that mean that much to me really.. I wish I knew the perfect scope for my new Savage 17 hmr though...Guess thats a different thread though.....
This has been an interesting thread Jeff. I always like to hear your point of view on things. It helps keep ones mind open, you have always been a big help to me as well.....Ted Too...
|
||
Rancid Coolaid
MODERATOR Joined: January/19/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9318 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Maybe "I haven't OWNED" would have been more accurate. I didn't own the Ultras, but broke a few and lost the love. Since then, I have used a few (helping friends with guns) and have been around many. I have been genuinely disappointed in the glass quality and the repeatability I have seen in those I have used. I looked at many Leupold optics over the years and have often said I hope to find one worthy of my money someday. (I tend to hunt with A dedicated hunting rifles with best glass I can get, or B. tactical rigs in which I am supremely confident), neither lends itself well to a Leupold acquisition. I own a few Kimber pistols, one is among their first custom shop guns (when there really was a custom shop) and it is an extremely great handgun. Those since have had varying degrees of greatness. My latest had issues from the beginning. I have lost some respect for both companies because they save money (cut costs) by cheapening manufacturing. I understand both are for-profit companies and profit is what keeps them going; however, I despise the "short-term" market mentality that permeates most companies today. Both lower costs while increasing prices, I don't care for that business model. My nail in the coffin for G&A, as I said, was the lovefest with CounterSniper and Greybull. I get that "Leupold pays the bills", but at some point the information becomes dishonest.
|
||
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn. Equality is something you whine about not being given. |
||
koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13181 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Jeff, I generally agree with your sentiment, but I doubt you will find any magazines that are much better. I found rifle shooter to be not much better. I no longer subscribe to any print magazines, although I do subscribe to electronic versions of Rifle and Handloader. They have enough stuff on reloading to make it worth my while.
As far as scopes go, I have seen very little in major gun magazines on the subject of optics that worth reading. I do disagree with one phrase from your original post though: Kimber makes a decent (but unusually failure-prone) 1911. What do you mean by "unusually failure prone"? With my admittedly limited experience with 1911s, there is nothing unusual about them being failure prone. ILya
|
||
koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13181 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
OK. I went ahead and located the aforementioned issue of G&A and read it during lunch.
Being an optics guy, I paid special attention to the Leupold article. While I will discuss it in more detail (with quotes) later on, I have a question for RC: since the guy who wrote it claims (I think) to have served in the Marine Corp, is it a common occurence to let idiots serve? After reading the article I hae to conclude that there are three possibilities: Option1: he is a liar Option 2: he is a blithering idiot Option 3: he has never seen a gun and/or riflescope before If he has served in the Marine Corp, it is either option 1 or 2. ILya
|
||
Rancid Coolaid
MODERATOR Joined: January/19/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9318 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Which Leupold article?
Craig Boddington is a Marine, many Marines know little about optics or even marksmanship, and - it seems, some are willing to bend the truth to make a paycheck. Integrity has a price - or so it seems with Craig.
|
||
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn. Equality is something you whine about not being given. |
||
Post Reply | Page <123> |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |