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billyburl2 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/13/2011 at 19:37
Rich, you can see more detail, but the as the magnification is turned up it is impossible for more light to get through the scope. That is my biggest complaint about your"comparisons". If I am using a scope in low-light situations, most likely I am hunting. This includes looking at trees trying to discern whether or not it is a branch or antlers I am seeing. Not flipping little black lines on a perfect white back ground, that I just happen to know is there because I put it there. "Seeing" detail and actually using the scope for what it is intended for are in this instance different!
If it is tourist season, why can't we shoot them?
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Rich Coyle View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/13/2011 at 20:15
Originally posted by billyburl2 billyburl2 wrote:

Rich, you can see more detail, but the as the magnification is turned up it is impossible for more light to get through the scope. That is my biggest complaint about your"comparisons". If I am using a scope in low-light situations, most likely I am hunting. This includes looking at trees trying to discern whether or not it is a branch or antlers I am seeing. Not flipping little black lines on a perfect white back ground, that I just happen to know is there because I put it there. "Seeing" detail and actually using the scope for what it is intended for are in this instance different!


Now I understand you don't understand what scopes are intended for. They are intended to make money for their manufactorer. What the customer uses it for is of no concern to them.

You can argue all you want about lower magnification in low light, but just like in day light if you want to see more detail after you have found something to check you turn up the setting. Night blindness not withstanding. Period.

Argue with John Barness if you don't think turning up the magnification to see more detail in low light does not work.
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tahqua View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/13/2011 at 21:09
That only works to a certain point. Once you drop below the exit pupil that works for your eyesight, it doesn't matter how well the scope resolves detail. You simply don't get enough light to see the target. I think you totally fail to understand optics in that regard.
Doug
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billyburl2 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/13/2011 at 21:30
I agree that man. make scopes to make money. But if they don't do it well, they don't make money for long. And yes, in certain circumstances turning the mag. up will give you more detail in low light. But can you still see the reticle? Probably not. Then its no longer a rifle scope, it is a spotting scope. Same thing happens in the day-light if mirage is apparent. If you turn down the mag. your sight picture improves. And BTW I don't make near enough money to argue with the people who ADVERTISE with Mr. Barsness.
If it is tourist season, why can't we shoot them?
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Rich Coyle View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/13/2011 at 21:53
Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

That only works to a certain point. Once you drop below the exit pupil that works for your eyesight, it doesn't matter how well the scope resolves detail. You simply don't get enough light to see the target. I think you totally fail to understand optics in that regard.


I think you just want to argue. Occationally I have posted that when it gets too dark to see, then it is too dark to see no matter what you are using. That's when some bright fellow suggested I use a flashlight. I mentioned it is illegal to use a flashlight to hunt most animals in Oregon. But I doubt you would admit to reading that kind of post by me.

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Rich Coyle View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/13/2011 at 21:59
Originally posted by billyburl2 billyburl2 wrote:

And yes, in certain circumstances turning the mag. up will give you more detail in low light.


Case rests.

The sight picture does not improve if you turn the magnification down. My son-in-law, who can see in the dark with out a flash light, tried doing it your way. It didn't work. He said all you get is more field of view; which is the oposite of what one wants when he wants to see detail.
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billyburl2 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/13/2011 at 22:06
Your right Rich, and rest of the whole world is wrong....
If it is tourist season, why can't we shoot them?
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Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/13/2011 at 22:23
Rich-- of all your statements, only the one about the makers wanting to make money, is accurate. That is why they use conjecture statistics to sample what part of their marketing techniques work and which don't work. They make no statement as to the truth of their claim only the response of the next polling. You are doing the same thing by implying that increased magnification leads to more resolution, when everyone here completely disagrees with this unqualified statement. You want this type of comparison to justify your conclusion, rather than having the evidence leading to the conclusion. 
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Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/13/2011 at 22:28
Just to play your game for a moment, I have a z6 2x12 and a av 2.5x10 ffp swaro, a 8x32 x56 nf, a 3.5x15 nf, and 2.5 x10 nf. The z6 beats them on any power, under any conditions, which is in contradiction to your findings. What do we do now?. You say this and I say that -- whats the consumer that your trying to help going to do now?
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mike650 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/13/2011 at 22:33
Originally posted by billyburl2 billyburl2 wrote:

Your right Rich, and rest of the whole world is wrong....


... except Rich, his son-law, and his gunsmith.   Whacko
“A hunt based only on trophies taken falls far short of what the ultimate goal should be.” – Fred Bear
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billyburl2 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/13/2011 at 22:36
don't forget his buddies and the often quoted guide in Africa....
If it is tourist season, why can't we shoot them?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/13/2011 at 23:12
To the original poster:

I will be more than happy to offer my opinion on the scopes you list (I have some familiarity with all of the ones you have there) if you give me a little more information on what you mean by clarity, since it is not an easily measurable parameter.  Also, keep in mind that how clarity is perceived changes considerably with different eyes and different lighting conditions.

Tell me what you are trying to see and under what conditions and I will be more than happy to help out.

ILya
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Rich Coyle View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2011 at 06:44
Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

Just to play your game for a moment, I have a z6 2x12 and a av 2.5x10 ffp swaro, a 8x32 x56 nf, a 3.5x15 nf, and 2.5 x10 nf. The z6 beats them on any power, under any conditions, which is in contradiction to your findings. What do we do now?. You say this and I say that -- whats the consumer that your trying to help going to do now?


Some suggested I try a z6. I don't have one, but have heard they are better than the z5. It appears you experience verifies what I have heard. How does that condradict what I have stated since I have never even seen a z6?

I do have one question, though. Are you trying to convince me that your z6 with a maximum power of 12X can show more detail than a Nightforce with 32X? That is the kind of performace I am looking for.
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Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2011 at 07:28
Whether my experience verifies is immaterial, irrelevant, hearsay, and more of same conjecture. That the z6 would be better, a six year old could deduce from the cost.



The z6 shows more on 12x than the nf on 12x. comparing the z6 on 12x to a NF on 32x is a fools errand. 
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RifleDude View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2011 at 07:51
Originally posted by Rich Coyle Rich Coyle wrote:

  Occationally I have posted that when it gets too dark to see, then it is too dark to see no matter what you are using. That's when some bright fellow suggested I use a flashlight. I mentioned it is illegal to use a flashlight to hunt most animals in Oregon. But I doubt you would admit to reading that kind of post by me.



Since I'm the person who brought up the flashlight during your "pump house test" discussion, I will try to explain this to you once again.  The flashlight point was not literal.  I did not actually suggest you use a flashlight.  It was used solely as an ANALOGY to illustrate a point about light transmission.  I explained that then, but you continued talking about the legality of using flashlights to hunt in Oregon.  The fact you still seem to think that was an actual literal suggestion suggests either my point sailed right over your head, you didn't read what I said, or you're intentionally being obtuse.

Increasing magnification does in fact improve your ability to see detail in low light or for that matter in any light, but only to the extent that there's enough ambient light to enable you to use the additional magnification and the optic is good enough that image quality doesn't suffer severely at the higher power.  It's not an infinite scale where more is always better.  Magnification is only beneficial while there's enough light and optical quality to support it, which almost always requires a larger objective.  At the very fringes of dawn and dusk, at some point light transmission trumps magnification so you actually see more detail by turning down magnification.  The reason is simple.  Increasing magnification increases the optics focal length, and increasing the focal length reduces light transmission through the optic.  Since everything you see is the result of light reflected off objects back to your eyes, reducing the amount of light reaching your eye reduces your ability to see detail.  This is scientific fact.  Since lower magnification increases light transmission through the optic via a larger exit pupil, at some point when it gets sufficiently dark, light transmission wins out over more Xs.
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2011 at 07:56
Dale and Ted,

If those last two posts don't get the points across, none will.
-Matt
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tahqua View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2011 at 08:55

All he wants to do is argue.

Doug
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2011 at 09:22
I don't know how else to say it, the plural of anecdote is not data.


Space weazel, see what you did?  See what you did!


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Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2011 at 11:49
I'm ready for round 6. Get Your Popcorn Ready
If we're not suppose to eat animals...how come they're made of meat?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2011 at 14:12
These Rich Coyle threads remind me of...
 
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