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coldhunt View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coldhunt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2011 at 12:16
I think it is realy time for the North American, and the European consumer to wake up, and demand products built in other than china factories, and with other than made in China parts.
They are demolishing all of our economies, and no one realy sees it. China Mart certainly sees it, and doesn't care becasue they are going to control all retail worldwide, and what is good for them is good for them.
 
Back to counterfiting. What is the penalty for counterfiting, or the distribution of counterfit money. It should be the same for products. It may not reach the people hiding in China, but it would certainly put a dent in the distribution, and knock out the back alley dealers.
 
There was a guy I heard about here in Alberta, who was bringing in a large container of knock off products (counterfits) every month. I saw a set of ping rapture clubs from his shipment.
These were put up against the real thing and a difference could not be found initialy, but eventualy they showed there real face and began to rust. My understanding was that these fakes, were punched out in the very same factory as the real ones. This I can't confirm. What is ping thinking sending all of their manufacturing to china, they obviously don't care, and see it as a small bump in the road to crazy high profits. I am sure leupold doesn't care too much either, as I am sure they are well aware and have been for years. They do however warn people about counterfits, but do nothing at the source, to stop it.
 
To the manufacturers. Quit dealing with China, and go back to resonable profits rather than the extreme. Products will be better, cost about the same, and Norh American workers will have jobs. What a novell idea, we spend our money in a way that will help fellow countrymen
keep jobs. Just checked my Steve Jobs, apple pie I-phone, yup made in china. I wonder how many of these will be counterfitted and sold to us.
 
Maybe the US govenment could pony up as well and reduce the crazy corp tax rate which is driving companies to go all over the world with phoney head offices, just to avoid US taxes. Canada corp tax is about 1/2 of the US corp tax, Ireland is much lower, and has a huge abundance of "2 people" corporate head offices. (someeone has to answer the phone) All of which are companies who mainly do business in the States, and that were US corporations, but now avoid corp taxes all together in the US. Why pay the US 33% when you can pay Ireland 8%. (my nunbers could be out a bit, but you get the idea)
 
We have the ideas, and they steal the ideas. It is the china way.
 
Sorry about the rant, and Merry Christmas to all.
 
PS. I checked most of the presents that came into our house, and saddly China won again. I can't even get it thru to my Wife and Kids. I however did not buy anything for anyone, that was made in China, at least It appears as if none of it was. I will keep working on the family.
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supertool73 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2011 at 12:45
Unless you figure out how to get rid of greed in people then things will only get worse.  Greed is what is causing all of our problems.  It has been that way since the beginning of time.  
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coldhunt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2011 at 13:46
Supertool. I agree that there will always be greed. I do also beleive that people can quit acting like sheep, and can change their spending habits.    
No disrespect to any retailers, but if people started to let them know that they will no longer buy China content products, and that they expect, proper labelling, things can begin to change. North american retail spending can infact change the the economy, all on it's own.
It is like a momentum thing, once it catches on, it can become the thing to do, but it takes people who know the problem to beging the change. I am only 1 person, but just think of the impact that everyone on just this forum alone could cause. It could then spread, as there are many of us who are on other forums, heck people would start coming here just to see what all the fuss is about. There should be a new forum heading added, Non China, product discussions 
It only took a bunch of large retailers like Wall Mart, and manufacturers like Nike to start this
mess. It can be changed, and for any hope of any long term prosperity, we must quit giving our money to china, where it rarely comes back from. They certainly don't buy everyday products from us, "Not Even Counterfits" Wink
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G Kurtz View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote G Kurtz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2011 at 16:44

Yes Mr Coldhunt this is EXACTLY the point. Plus, what I'm trying to convey from the beginning, is that this special sector of the market is NOT the same as other. We know they are doing fake Rolex, fake IPhone etc. etc. ... well this is NOT the same as doing fake tactical scopes, or to invade our market with sub-price scopes, thus damaging the manufacturing capacity of our (= US and EU) defense industry

 

I have to leave now, have an airplane waiting ... but later would like to give some hints also on what they are in the meantime REALLY developing for their military, and what kind of usage are doing of it ... now leave here, 48 hours in this city and I'm coughing again like Hell ... and the sky even looks (LOOKS) clean these days! This place is Hell camouflaged as "development" and also good Chinese people would need to leave in a more decent place where there will be respect and enforcement of rule of law

 

A+ 

K

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JF4545 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JF4545 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2011 at 18:33
I Proudly sell 100% USA Made BenchMade Knives, also Lone Wolf and HK, and Colorado made Spydercos  Thats what my son will be getting for Christmas....
 
Im afraid to look at where the Dale Tiffany Floor Lamp I bought my wife is made, along with her other presents...Bucky
 
Im not the brightest Crayon in the box, Still it would be a cold day in hell before I bought a fake Leo Scope. Because I buy my things from Quality Retailers like SWFABig Grin
 
Merry Christmas Everybody!!
J..........
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coldhunt View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coldhunt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/23/2011 at 10:31
Allthough I thought Mr Kurtz, came on quite strong, and seemed to portray the people here as
ignorant to the fact, I beleive he unterstands that there are knowlegeable people here. I am in agreement with him, as far as what I have read. I know products which fall under the catigory of defence are all important, but the purchasing of everyday products, is where the money comes from to help them dictate world economics, and beleive me that is exactly what they are doing. China has sold us all inferior cheap products, even using toxic paint on kids toys, they have sold both properly ordered, and counterfit products. They have gone from a relatively poor country, to the country who owns most of the debt of the western nations.
It is the large corporations, and the politicians, who have allowed them to virtualy take over.
It is up to the consumer to take the economy back. There was a time when silicon valley, would not only design things like the I-phone, but also produce it, at a price that apple could have sold it and made a very good profit, but that is not the theme for the top few. The theme is to take as much profit as possible, at the expense of the average person. When the average person can no longer afford to buy, they will just move on to greenr grass. The problem is this. It is the american system which has allowed these companies to grow in the first place, and they are now turning their backs on the people and the country that gave them the oportunity, simply to increase their own net worth. When the middle class has evaporated, (which it will) maybe we will all be making products for China, at wages which keep us in poverty. The banana republic of North America, is not far away.
Mr Kurtz did hit a subject that strikes a nerve with me. Here in Alberta we enjoy one of the best economies in the World, but that does not prevent me from feeling for the people of Detroit, or Indiana, and others. I want to buy Indiana made, not China made, unlike China maybe someone from Indiana might buy something from us. TRADE!
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coldhunt View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coldhunt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/23/2011 at 11:00
My Hat is off to you JF4545. Without people like you who are proud to sell USA. There would not be the other people making those products. Now that's keeping the money where it belongs.
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G Kurtz View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote G Kurtz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/25/2011 at 01:31
First and foremost let me tell all U guys two things
- I do NOT think nobody is "ignorant"
- I do not want to "lecture" nobody
In the same time I'm a warrior and I fight in what I believe, with whatever weapon
Thanx for Your attention
A+ and merry Xmas to all of U
K
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coldhunt View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coldhunt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/26/2011 at 11:05
I am sorry Mr Kurtz. I was simply stating that it (may have) appeared that way to many. I understand your larger concern with regard to the military product aspect. The everyday impact is also a big concern. For every closed factory in the US, a new one springs up in china, and for the most part the western world is buying into the china, cheap junk and counterfit plan, which is stripping all of us from our assets, and a stable economy. This is going to make them the financial dictator of the world. Rifle scopes are a very good example, showing china for what it is, and shows the potential problems in military aspects.
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G Kurtz View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote G Kurtz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/09/2012 at 01:32

Chinese fakes:

 

done a little check on the fake "ACOG": body is normal Alu low grade, no Tritium at all, then of course no luminescence, the lenses absorb a lot of light (I think are made of plastic) ... etc. in brief it is just a stupid kind of toy. Not even worth a test

 

The fake Aimpoint is different in that - at least- it has actually a red point ... or a green one, if U want. Both R & G can be adjusted in 2 steps of brightness … at least theorically as one cannot see a really impressive difference in level 2 compared to level 1!

 

Then the Sniper 4-16x40 has THREE kind of light for the reticle: Red Green and even Blue! (Not sure why but I know Chinese LOVE colored lights of different colors!) It is a SFP, reticle is a Mil-dot and seems to stay stable in zooming ...

 

Sorry I have to come back and no possibility to do some real test-fire at present. Also not sure I want to install these things on some real weapon. But maybe will do later, one day; first would need to go retirement !

K

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02Silver View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 02Silver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/2012 at 12:57
For what it is worth.  I am trying to buy more non China made goods.  Case in point, I bought my first slip on work boots in 27 years this week.  I have worn Red Wing lace ups with the occasional Justin, Wolverine, or Rocky's all of these years.  With the company discount and voucher I usually have to pay 20 or less on my end depending on the boot.  The lady said that the Double H's were made in Pennsylvania (this was after I had chosen my latest Red Wing). 
 
Conversation went something like this:
 
I thought Red Wings were made in America?  Nope, they are pretty much made in China with American material as are a lot of our boots.
Which ones are made in America?  A lot of the Justins, all of the Lucheses, Double HH work boots and a few others but you have to look to be sure.  I had to pay $50.00 for my part this time but I don't mind.  I thought I had been buying American all along and I have decent situational awareness.
 
Of course in regards to this thread and optics:  Made in China BSA's, Simmons, or whatever brand are one thing.  Straight up relabeled fakes are a whole different issue.
 
Be careful where you spend your money because it isn't too cheap if you end up buying things three or four times.
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Bitterroot Bulls View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bitterroot Bulls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/2012 at 16:10
Check out this link for what can be made in America:
Made in America in Montana


Edited by Bitterroot Bulls - January/10/2012 at 21:09
-Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FireEMT5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/2012 at 19:05
Umm..... Red Wing Shoes and boots are made in America. The Red Wing Shoe brand is still primarily handmade in the USA at the company's plants in Potosi, Missouri and Danville, Kentucky and two plants in Red Wing, Minnesota.  That said, some of the other lines they carry are made overseas.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 02Silver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2012 at 11:05
Fire,
 
That is what I thought all of these years but the pair I initially picked were these:  http://www.redwingshoes.com/red-wing-shoe/2235-red-wing-shoes/2235-red-wing-mens-6-inch-boot-brown
 
Looked them over well.  Click that little information circle by Made In China.  There were others as well and all were made in China (out of the RW lace ups that I looked at on display).
 
The point I was mostly trying to spotlight was the need to really look.  My company is selling technology to them and building plants over there as well.  That said, I can put a little effort into buying American when practical.
 
I will look for the Red Wings that are made here especially if I find that I don't like these Double HH slip ons that I bought as I put some concrete and steel miles on them.
 
I like good optics so that part of the conversation shouldn't affect me unless I somehow end up with a counterfeit.
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G Kurtz View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote G Kurtz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/23/2012 at 19:06

In the first part of this tread I tried to give evidence to the danger represented by China’s attack to our defense industry, in particular referring to the opto=tactical sector. Trademarks infringements, technology theft, brand counterfeiting, total disregard of international commercial laws (despite the so much acclaimed China entering in WTO back in 2002) plus production at very low cost due to complete lack of respect for the life and rights of the workers are the disgusting amass of weaponry China is deploying against us. But even worst of all these is the attitude of some western manager who, looking for easy and fast money or sometime just trying to make his brand to survive in this no-law jungle, do relocate production in China. Production relocation can have a value where does exist the rule of law. As there is NO such thing in China to relocate there is suicide: they will steal your technology, your brand, your vision, your everything and then they will leave you out alone in the darkness. Then, just try – as a foreigner - to lawsuit some Chinese manufacture, in China, and you will have an idea of the REAL situation … But then it will be far too late. E.g check the “Ferrero against Tresor” lawsuit, which established a first-case record and went to Financial Times first page years ago. Tresor (meaning “treasure” in Italian North-Eastern dialect) was a TOTALLY Chinese brand, masquerading itself as European and marketing a complete copy (back to the kind of lettering, the box, the shape etc …) of the Ferrero Rocher (delicious) chocolate stuff. Old Ferrero family’s brand declared war and went to China for Justice. First answer form Chinese court was: “Tresor (sic!) is an oldest and more respected brand than Ferrero; so Ferrero has to pay some money  to Tresor!” Well, they do NOT surrendered and after many more years they were declared to be right by the Chinese higher court … and entitled to have a reimbursement of something like $ 50,000 … when they had spent MILLIONs dollar in the process! OK, but they won … but of course a smaller or less solid company will not be able to take such kind of satisfaction.  

 

So, the sad situation is at present we – the West – do NOT have the capacity to enforce the rule of international law in PR China. Therefore we have to be conscious of this and do PREVENT further damages.

 

It seems from the words I read on this forum the American Shooters/Hunters community (or at least the part of it who follows this forum, probably the more educated and conscious section of it) is aware of this situation. As much as this is very good I’m not so sure of the attitude of American managers … by will or by force relocations of production do continue. E.g. Vortex Crossfire line is totally made in China as much as many more “fake-western-names” brands or production lines. And we probably do NOT know exactly how many … managers seem reluctant to give this kind of info.

 

As I personally do NOT want NEVER to see a Remington made in China, as much as a made in China Beretta I would like western warriors to be very aware of the present danger in the opto-tactical sector and to do their best to NEVER buy NOTHING which is made in China, at least in this sector. I know it is not easy, but ALL the important things are not easy to achieve.

 

Then there is more than this, which I will try  to convey in the next part of this tread, i.e. that WHILE INVADING OUR MARKET WITH SHIXXY PRODUCTS (IN THIS STRATEGIC SECTOR) AND TRYING TO DISRUPT THE CAPACITY OF OUR OPTO-TACTICAL INDUSTRY, CHINA IS DEVELOPING - AND IS ALREADY WELL ADVANCED - IN TIS SAME SECTOR, WITH PRODUCTS WHICH ARE NOT MARKETED IN THE WEST.

 

Point is they have ample visibility of our situation and development while we have little (public) vision of what is going on inside the PR China. Not a good tactical situation. We shall try to ameliorate.

 

So more on this later. Would like to see Your comments, guys

 

A+

K

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G Kurtz View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote G Kurtz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/13/2012 at 09:08

There are a lot of poachers in China, but a regular, lawful, educated hunters' community is virtually not-existent ...

The only form of more or less organized/authorized hunt appears in the kind of very expensive "safaris" aimed to kill quite exotic wild animals (no matter if endangered species) in very remote areas of the country, generally to the benefit of some rich foreigner. Then, as in all authoritarian countries, civilians are highly inhibited to own (not to mention to carry) firearms. Therefore the only "civilians" going around armed (Berettas M9 are the preferred tools) are Mafia Triads guys. Outside M&P people the sport of targeting it is also discouraged, especially regarding the use of operative tools: i.e. in authorized ranges the cost (for a civilian) of A SINGLE 7.62x39  low quality ammo for the AK47 is 50 yuen (= 8 US $!).

In such a a situation one should expect that public info and media upon weapons will be very limited. On the contrary, there is a very relevant amount of Chinese magazines and Chinese Net material upon firearms, especially light and medium caliber. Such material is nearly totally dedicated to defense (or attack?); but U will find nothing inside upon hunting firearms.

Then such material generally deals very lightly with Chinese weapons and optical production, while it covers quite extensively the western production form US and EU. And this not limited to normal factory lines "irons & glasses", but also to very specialized limited series. Just as examples U can see here some pix from Chinese media:

or

So it appears that the Chinese has a very ample vision of our western arms production and state of advancements in this sector, while we westerner have little to no vision (at least at public level) of what is going on inside China.

 

Such sit is unhealthy, so we will try to improve it a little.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote G Kurtz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/13/2012 at 20:33

So … shall U be a PLA’s [People's "Liberation" (hahaha!) Army] private, this is what U will see looking inside your MGL 95-1 300 

 
That is a quite simple but sturdy, low-weight and effective low light targeting device normally installed on the new Chinese QBZ 95-1 5.8mm assault rifle.
(95-1 is here with grenade launcher and conventional optiks YMA 95-1 600). Here under is a bunch of 95-1 roughly tested for amphibious ops.
Nothing to share with the usual amass of broke-laden, crap-plastic, bad-metal-combo we generally see coming out from China, ya? 

Then, shall U need something a little more precise and long range then can revert to this (8-32x50)

 
and install that on this (CS/LR4 7.62) 
And if U are a quite good shooter the result can be this ...(100m)
  

Not so bad, nein? So it seems the Chineses are already able to produce international standard quality opto-mechanical weaponry equipment. Then ... why they are so happy to still invade our markets with crap low quality things ...?

 

In the heavy caliber range they also produce some national stuff but here as far as I know the level is still not comparable to our tools of the trade ...

 

In the next post we will see what kind of marksmanship level Chinese staff can attain with their tools

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alan Robertson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/14/2012 at 13:04
I'm old enough to remember that the quality of Japanese goods after the war was so lousy as to be the subject of many jokes.
The Japanese wiped that smile off our face a long time ago.

The whole mess we've gotten into has come about not only from the competitiveness of world neighbors, but in even greater measure, from the corrupt sweetheart deals cut by congress and some domestic players trying to structure our tax system in such a way that smaller US firms can in no way compete against the US' bigger international players.

We've already been sold down the river. It's just a matter of time before we get sucked under that logjam just around the bend.
"Garg'n uair dhuisgear"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rustic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/14/2012 at 23:15
I think with the high corp. taxes and union bosses working to jack up labor costs so their members could pay more in dues along with other shady deals started a long time ago. This is a huge player in what we are seeing now and the tidal wave of problems that going to be showing up on our doorstep in the future.
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G Kurtz View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote G Kurtz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/14/2012 at 23:27
Hallo Alan
Ya, thanx for your point. In great part I agree with You on the reasons. Money without honor is devil. Ethics must be restored in the West.
However let me write down that the Japs - after that HUGE collapse of their whole system (including the divine role of the Emperor and the like) back in 1945, NEVER went back into right wing militarism ... and (although I've been a Toyota Celica, Suzukis and Nikon user) the best car is still Ferrari, the best motorbyke is still ol'good Harley, and  best camera is still Leica.
 
Then now China is a new and bigger treat  because of the sheer dimension (1.5 billion guys) and of the attitude (super right wing, nazi-like, authoritarian militaristic paternalistic government with unrestrained capitalism, no rule of law and no-possible-critics in the hyper-uninformed population). This, plus a well camouflagaed vision from outside: NO western diplomat nor businessman will be ever let free to  go alone in PR China to see from himself how's going ... especially in sensitive area, like e.g. Inner Mongolia or Tibet
 
And I will not be so pessimistic. They told me if you fight with honor and bravery, even if destroyed and killed, your spirit will always come back, stronger and dangerous, and you always win (von Clausewitz). I believe it
 
A+
K
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