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Hard Data Vs. Ballistic's Chart

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Bitterroot Bulls View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bitterroot Bulls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2012 at 22:16
I hope the OP is not an indication of how clear the class instruction is.
 
 
BDC reticle systems are sufficiently precise to extend the range of most shooters to those ranges reasonably past MPBR.  They sure are better than the old "Hold just over his back!"
 
Some BDC systems like the MIL subtended BRH/BRX reticles or Premier BDCs are really usefull to the experienced shooter.
 
As always, verify your dope with real-world shooting (or is it hard data?).
 
 
-Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2012 at 22:20
A shooter well versed in physics will immediately know the answer to this question: What does a bullet do immediately upon leaviing the barrel?  Simple question, simple answer... what say you "VX guy"?
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FORCE RECON MARINE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2012 at 22:44
First off, I'm new to the forum so I'd like to say Hello to everyone. 

As a former scout sniper, I was looking around to see if there was a forum where I could kick back and shoot the breeze about precision, long-range tactical shooting with other former or current snipers, and I came upon this one.

If this is, in fact, a discussion is about the usage of BDCs vs. hard data and the viability of minutes over mils with respect to dope settings and adjustments for precision, long-range firing solutions then I have to agree w/ VX Marksmanship that hard data and minute adjustment capability are the preferable way to go in long-range tactical shooting for a sniper.

I'm very accustomed to MIL-MIL orientation and I have no problem with it but my preference would be to be able to make minute adjustments over mil when shooting at distances greater than 500 yds. Also, I see the benefit of the BDC for those, especially for hunters, who shoot out to distances of say 300-500 yds. but for precision tactical shooting well beyond 500 yds., I would not even consider using a BDC and always use hard data.

Any other former 8541s here in the forum? If so, you'll remember as I do that during Scout Sniper School, the use of the Unertl BDC was verboten (we all considered them a crutch for something that should be part of the individual's core skillset) and in our advanced training we definitely grew to appreciate the value of hard data. I also remember all the discussions among us concerning the value of minute turrets over mil.

Are people's opinions about the original article directed toward precision, long-range tactical use or just in general? Just trying to understand where everyone's coming from. And again, I'm new here and I'm hoping to have some good conversations about tactical optics and shooting w/ others, especially, other 8541s, 0317s and LE snipers, too.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FORCE RECON MARINE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2012 at 22:50
By the way, that spinning Taz avatar is pretty cool. I'm trying to put up an avatar but I'm not sure how to get it on my profile yet. Still working on setting profile info up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2012 at 22:59

Welcome to the forum, FRM. 

I agree with the utility of MOA/MOA vs mil/mil, but prefer mil/mil to mil/MOA.  I agree that BDC has a fine application for hunting, which I believe is where most people use it.  However, with new PDF and smartphone technology, BDC's can be calculated very rapidly.  They no longer present many of the limitations they once did.  I'm not lobbying for them, just can see the utility.  I have a couple of hunting rifles with BDC scopes.  They, like any other tool, require constant and consistant use for rapdi and effective employment. 

Glad to have you aboard...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VX Marksmanship Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2012 at 23:02
Force Recon:

Thanks for speaking up in this conversation.  Can you make sure that you take a close look over my original post and see if you can find anything wrong with my thought process?  Is this not what we were not only trained, but applied and tested?  I am also an 8541.  Some of these people think that I'm just here for advertising.  It's good to know that I can talk with someone that's understands my argument. 

-Dan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2012 at 23:05
Originally posted by FORCE RECON MARINE FORCE RECON MARINE wrote:

By the way, that spinning Taz avatar is pretty cool. I'm trying to put up an avatar but I'm not sure how to get it on my profile yet. Still working on setting profile info up.

Thank you... Taz is my alter ego.

You have to go to "edit profile" and "select avatar"...  load the avatar.

 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bitterroot Bulls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2012 at 23:09
Originally posted by FORCE RECON MARINE FORCE RECON MARINE wrote:

Are people's opinions about the original article directed toward precision, long-range tactical use or just in general? Just trying to understand where everyone's coming from. And again, I'm new here and I'm hoping to have some good conversations about tactical optics and shooting w/ others, especially, other 8541s, 0317s and LE snipers, too.
I can't speak for the others, but my post was regarding the lack of clarity in the original post (I can't say it was much of an "article"). What was the OP's point?
BDC reticles work out to moderate ranges? 1/4 MOA adjustments are finer than 0.1 MIL? You should use field-verified data for long range corrections? Shooting from the shoulder affects your dope (or maybe POI)?
It was kind of hard to tell, and some let the OP know about it. His response was, "I'm a marine sniper and you aren't, so you suck."   This is kind of offensive to some.
 
VX Marksmanship,
 
Can you clarify what your intention was in posting the original post.  Before you ask to see my papers, I am not an 8541.
-Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bitterroot Bulls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2012 at 23:32
Originally posted by VX Marksmanship VX Marksmanship wrote:

1/10 mil is almost as good as 1/4 minute.  But this is at a 100 yards.  What about 400?  What about 1000
 
The difference between a 1/10 MIL and 1/4 MOA at 1000 yards is about .98 inches.
-Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VX Marksmanship Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2012 at 23:35
Bitterroot Bulls,

I finally figured out what OP meant!  Sorry for the delay.  My response was never "I'm a marine sniper and you aren't, so you suck."  Can you please find a quote of mine that says that specifically?

My original intent was to hear feedback from what I thought (and still may be) an intelligent tactical optic's audience.  I wanted to find out what the deal was with so many people relying on BDC's.  I see now, that it's just a lack of training.  And no, this does not mean you have to be a school trained sniper.  I know several shooters that have no military or law enforcement experience, but understand long range shooting and optic's consideration.  I am not sponsored by any optics, allow they stop by all the time and harass me with phone calls at my business V X Marksmanship LLC.  I prefer to teach true long range shooting and make well-rounded shooters without them questioning my motivations. 

Does this answer your question, Matt?

Dan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VX Marksmanship Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2012 at 23:40
Bitteroot Bulls,

As far as your comment about the 1000 yard and the difference between 1/4 moa and 1/10 mil being negliable....You're right!  I agree.  But I still think that having a minute turret adj with mil-dot reticle makes a well-rounded shooter because it puts the shooter through the exercise of understand minute and mil conversions.  Most scopes to include cheap-expensive have minute adj turrets and if I'm going to make well-rounded shooters, I want that shooter to be able to handle any weapon's system that available to them.  And yes, this would include a BDC system, but we all know where I stand on that issue by now...

Dan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bitterroot Bulls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2012 at 23:58
VXM,
I was referring, of course, to the tone of your post, and how it came across, rather than a specific quote. I am sure you can find the patronizing condescension in the following quote:
Originally posted by VX Marksmanship VX Marksmanship wrote:

Out of all who responded to my post, how many are actual school trained snipers?  Anyone? 

Okay, let's add something else, how many here with combat experience as a sniper?

 
 
There are a lot of experienced shooters on this site from military, LE, and civilian life. 
 
I can give an answer to your question about modern shooters relying on simplilfied BDC systems.  It is because they work within their limits.  As far as why some people use these systems past their limits, instead of aquiring the proper training and skills, I answer your question with a question:  Why do people do stupid things?
 
Your original post lumps all BDC reticles into the same category while I think Horus, Premier, and others would take issue with being lumped in with Nikon's silly circle-BDC-thingy.
 
I hope you stick around, share your thoughts, and listen to those of others.
-Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VX Marksmanship Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2012 at 00:07
Matt,

I agree that did sound condescending.  I was responding to condescending remarks towards me being inebriated, an idiot, and experienced.  I was waiting for an intelligent reply to my OP, and just hadn't seen one yet.  My past conversions regarding this topic were around other LE snipers and military snipers, and I had never really experienced any of the ridiculous comments that I've heard through this website before.  I'm not a chatter, so I'm learning how things work here.  I simply wanted to get some feedback. 

I have no doubt that there are other experienced shooters here, and again, I look forward to intelligent responses.

At my school, I deal with "experienced" shooters from all walks of life, and I always learn from my students and other instructors.  I'd be ignorant if I didn't.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VX Marksmanship Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2012 at 00:14
Matt,

Oh, forgot to mention one more thing.  I own one of the Horus scopes that was given to me by the owner.  And it's not a BDC.  It's Christmas tree mil system.  I used for long range shooting with the M107.  And I have used for the .308, but I prefer to use that scope for just extreme long range, because the reticle is a little busy.

I have also used the Leupold fixed 3 power with a BDC system on a graduated M14.  And used the S&B on the M40-A3 and A5, and the Nightforce NXS 3.5x15 on the XM-3 suppressed, and the newer version of the S&B on the MK11 (orAR10) platform. 

All of these systems served a purpose, and my opinions come from personal experience.  They all have pros and cons.  Some are simply better than others.  But certain facts remain, and that's what my OP was all about. 

Dan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bitterroot Bulls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2012 at 00:28
VXM,
 
I am sorry you did not find my responses intelligent.
 
I think saying the Christmas Tree reticles aren't BDCs isn't quite accurate.  They are not simply ranging reticles, they are used to compensate for bullet drop (and drift).  They are quite accurate for long range solutions (especially when combined with matching turrets), and faster in use than traditional dialed solutions, in my experience.  I agree that they are definitely busy.
-Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VX Marksmanship Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2012 at 00:35
Do the terms "grid pattern," "Christmas tree," "inverted diamond," GEN I or GEN II mil-dots mean anything to anyone here?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VX Marksmanship Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2012 at 00:40
Alright, this concludes my once in a life-time chatting experience online.  I hope my original post shed some light on a sniper's opinion of hard data Vs. BDC. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rustic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2012 at 00:45
I really don't know a whole lot of what was talked about here... just bits and pieces I guess. Would like to learn more.
IMO though, I hate BDC type reticles I've had a couple of different ones. Used them for a hunt was very dissatisfied went back to a simple duplex and then went to a duplex with CDS type dials have not looked back since with zero regret's.

Again, IMO that is a must on this forum.Wink
 

Edited by rustic - January/28/2012 at 00:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bitterroot Bulls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2012 at 00:46
Interesting that VXM and Force Recon both used the term "article" in reference to VXM's first post.  Also intersting both went offline at the same time right after VXM's last post.  I think their IP address similarities might be interesting as well.
-Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ernie Bishop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2012 at 00:51
Well thought out BDC reticles have their place.
For me they are limited after a certain point/distance. 
But if they are designed within a hunter/shooter limits, they can work good and quick.
IF you understand the different subtensions between the lines,  it allows you to dial off of the lines or even reticle range with them.
I started distance shooting using a BDC reticle, and did quite well with it.
I don't use them today though.

I would much rather have FFP MOA/MOA or MIL/MIL for field shooting, hunting, and tactical matches.  SFP for bench matches and LR pding.  If Dialing with a reticle, keep it the same, and make sure he has a zero stop.
Give them a systems approach that is as idiot proof as possible.
When teaching a new shooter, I don't see the need to for them to understand both or try to use both when under pressure/stress and shooting under time or for score,  a hunt of a lifetime or worse yet, if their life depended on it.  Loco
Sort of a KISS methodology.
When testing students on their own with no help or coaching, many times you will see the "wheels fall off of the bus", as they are trying to absorb so much info in a short period of time. 
Even though the previous day with the help of a spotter or instructor they were drilling a hole in the target. 
Now on their own, under time, being graded and every one watching them, they are trying to think of so many things.  Ranging in Mils, then using MOA for drop, or dialing in MOA and dope wind with a MIL reticle just gets confusing sometimes.

Just because that is what has been used by the military or LEO's doesn't mean it is the best-No offense to those serve.  Many times they have to use what they are told to use, and they do a good job with it.

I don't care whether one uses MIL or MOA, I will just emphasize and recommend staying with a matched system.  I prefer MOA-Doesn't make it better, It is easier for me.
Can I make quick field conversion from MILS to MOA?  Yes, but why if I don't have to?
You can reticle range just as accurately with MOA as you can MIL.   And I only do that if a match requires it or my technology fails.
Accuracy will depend upon the quality of the reticle set-up and the users familiarity and practice with it.
My job doesn't require me to know either MILS or MOASnoopy
I shoot distance for fun, and compete (500-1K) for fun. 
I shoot and hunt at distance because I like to.
And at that, most of the time I do it with a single-shot specialty pistol.Bandito
I'm sort of simple-minded and math challenged, so that is how I "skin the cat" most of the time.


Ernie



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