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Scope used on M-14 |
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DieselDevilDog
Optics GrassHopper Joined: June/01/2012 Status: Offline Points: 4 |
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Posted: June/01/2012 at 13:36 |
Hello All,
We had a scope on our CIA issued M-14's in 1965 in Chu Lai. Would anyone know what type this was? thanks
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stickbow46
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: January/07/2009 Location: Benton, Pa Status: Offline Points: 4678 |
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Welcome to the OT!
Sorry I can't help with that answer as I was in the Navy[9-65/12-69] we only used M1 Garand & Thomson's.If no one can remember[after all, we are all over 60 now that were involved with that little squirmish],you might want to call Camp Perry if anyone would know, it would be them.........
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Pearls of Wisdom are Heard not Spoken
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DieselDevilDog
Optics GrassHopper Joined: June/01/2012 Status: Offline Points: 4 |
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Thanks,
Diesel
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cheaptrick
MODERATOR Joined: September/27/2004 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 20844 |
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I'd ask this question over at Sniper's Hide. Bet they would know.....Good luck!
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If at first you don't secede...try..try again.
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BeltFed
Optics Retard Joined: February/12/2008 Location: Ky Status: Offline Points: 22284 |
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I believe at that time it was called the XM-21, which was an accurized M-14 with a 3-9x40 Redfield scope with a ballistic cam that changed with the power setting. The cross hairs had stadia lines on them that were set so that they bracketed a average size human torso at the correct power setting and camed the cross hairs to the correct range. Find your target, adjust the power ring so that the stadia lines bracketted the torso (this camed the cross hairs to the correct range up to 900yds), take the shot.
Leatherwood eventually bought the rights to the setup and produced the scopes for the military.
Does this sound like the system you used?
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Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.
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Bitterroot Bulls
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: May/07/2009 Location: Montana Status: Offline Points: 3416 |
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I keep trying to post on this thread, but I get the following warning:
"Error 007 : Insufficient clearance to engage. System protocol violation."
Did this post show up?
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-Matt
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Kickboxer
MODERATOR Moderator Joined: February/13/2008 Status: Offline Points: 23679 |
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Warning: System Protocol Violation
Insufficient clearance to engage...
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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.
There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living |
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Old Soldier
Optics GrassHopper Joined: June/01/2012 Location: Out West Status: Offline Points: 22 |
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Don't believe the XM-21 came into use until 1968. Never heard of "CIA" issued scoped M14s. Have to check some references tonight... After 27 yrs of mil service I suffer often from CRS.
OS
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cheaptrick
MODERATOR Joined: September/27/2004 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 20844 |
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Welcome, Soldier.
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If at first you don't secede...try..try again.
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Rancid Coolaid
MODERATOR Joined: January/19/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9318 |
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I wasn't born yet, so I can't say much with authority on the matter.
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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn. Equality is something you whine about not being given. |
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Urimaginaryfrnd
MODERATOR Resident Redneck Joined: June/20/2005 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 14964 |
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Pup Tenter --- I was born in 56. Dad was OSI in Nam unfortunately he passed away a few years ago and a lot of Top Secret Info went to the grave with him. I am pretty sure the vietnam issued M14's had the 3X9 power Automatic ranging telescope, ART, |
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"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do". Bobby Paul Doherty Texas Ranger |
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cheaptrick
MODERATOR Joined: September/27/2004 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 20844 |
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I LOVE that website.....Just logged in again.
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If at first you don't secede...try..try again.
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stickbow46
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: January/07/2009 Location: Benton, Pa Status: Offline Points: 4678 |
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Ahh to be 56 again,just saying WES
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Pearls of Wisdom are Heard not Spoken
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DieselDevilDog
Optics GrassHopper Joined: June/01/2012 Status: Offline Points: 4 |
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I think that was it! Thanks brother. It was still in experimental stage. I remember it was pretty easy to target.
Diesel
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Kickboxer
MODERATOR Moderator Joined: February/13/2008 Status: Offline Points: 23679 |
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Perhaps like this?
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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.
There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living |
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BeltFed
Optics Retard Joined: February/12/2008 Location: Ky Status: Offline Points: 22284 |
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I checked 2 Army Field Manuals, FM 23-8, dated 1974, and TC 23-14, dated 1969 about the ART scope, and neither mentioned a brand of course, but said that the scope was a high quality commercial scope. My research is 30+ years old, and from memory so I may have been mistaken about the brands of scope used for the ART system, and which order they came in.
The 1969 manual is a sniper training manual, and the weapon used is the M-21 with the ART scope. FM 23-8 is mentioned in this manual as well, so earlier issues than 1974 had to exhist, but I do not know if the M-21 was mentioned in them. There is a section on the M-21 system in the 1974 manual.
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Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.
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Old Soldier
Optics GrassHopper Joined: June/01/2012 Location: Out West Status: Offline Points: 22 |
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I cannot find anything to support fielding of the XM21 or the ART-TEL before 1969. FWIW the old Redfield based ART-TEL is now commonly referred to as the ART I in the sniper community. I was initially issued an M21 (marked XM21) in 1978. It came with both an ART I and an ART II. I shot the ART I until a lens loosened forcing me to change to the ART II. When I did, I lock-tited the mount both to the receiver (front and rear) and the two-piece rear screw. Once done it held a pretty reliable zero but I never liked the pivoting (camming) mount. I was glad to see it go when the M24 arrived in October 1988. We did keep them for use without the scopes as observer/back-up rifles. About the same time the M24 was being developed, 10th Special Forces Group was developing their so-called XM-25. That gun was heavier and more clumbsy than the M24, hardly suited to close-quarter battle if a sniper/observer team needed to get their rears out of a jam. Think about this for a moment; two guys walking around with 12lb plus rifles equipped with 10X scopes who encounter an armed threat at 15 meters. Think they are trained to "snap-shoot" those rifles? The answer is obviously "Not!". I and a friend developed a training plan to do this using the quick-kill techniques developed by McDaniel but only oriented to the sniper. We expected the observer to carry a rack-grade M14/M16/M4 or a flat-top M16 with a Mil-Dot scope having magnification of less than 6x. The rational was to give the observer a weapon that he could also use to give the sniper sight corrections while still being able to engage himself is required.
FWIW: The M21 was very sensitive to care and despite some of the comments on M14.com it was not a reliable system. If you want one to hang on the wall and take to the range once in awhile they can be fun. Need a serious gun look elsewhere. For a thorough run-thru on M14 history take a look at Clinton Ezell's book "The Great Rifle Controversy". In this book he describes the production problems and failures that led to the halt of M14 rifle production.
OS.
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Old Soldier
Optics GrassHopper Joined: June/01/2012 Location: Out West Status: Offline Points: 22 |
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DieselDevilDog,
What unit were you with at Chu Lai when they issued these rifles?
OS
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ohtreethirtyone
Optics GrassHopper Joined: May/14/2012 Location: AK Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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[QUOTE=Old Soldier] About the same time the M24 was being developed, 10th Special Forces Group was developing their so-called XM-25. That gun was heavier and more clumbsy than the M24, hardly suited to close-quarter battle if a sniper/observer team needed to get their rears out of a jam. Think about this for a moment; two guys walking around with 12lb plus rifles equipped with 10X scopes who encounter an armed threat at 15 meters. QUOTE]
The sniper teams in my unit in the Marines, the sniper had an M-40 & 45, the observer had an M-16. Some observers carried a 45 too at their discretion. 0331 |
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Old Soldier
Optics GrassHopper Joined: June/01/2012 Location: Out West Status: Offline Points: 22 |
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BTT
DieselDevilDog,
What unit were you with at Chu Lai when they issued these rifles?
OS
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