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Bitterroot Bulls View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bitterroot Bulls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2013 at 15:47
EDIT:
 
never mind, I see the "4."
 
Little optomistic on scores though.


Edited by Bitterroot Bulls - January/28/2013 at 15:52
-Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JGRaider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2013 at 15:50
782/4= 195.5.  As I said in the post, the one on the left is his son's first buck, the other 4 are his.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JGRaider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2013 at 15:59
Originally posted by Bitterroot Bulls Bitterroot Bulls wrote:

EDIT:
 
never mind, I see the "4."
 
Little optomistic on scores though.

First we have guys recommending glass they've never laid eyes on, then we have a mule deer expert scoring bucks from an internet picture.  Go figure.  BB, our buddy is a certified B&C scorer and he'd beg to differ my friend.  Believe what you want though if it makes you feel better.  I could post another dozen pics of big bucks that were scored and I'd guess you'd be off the mark on them too.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bitterroot Bulls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2013 at 16:06
Originally posted by JGRaider JGRaider wrote:

Originally posted by Bitterroot Bulls Bitterroot Bulls wrote:

EDIT:
 
never mind, I see the "4."
 
Little optomistic on scores though.

First we have guys recommending glass they've never laid eyes on, then we have a mule deer expert scoring bucks from an internet picture.  Go figure.  BB, our buddy is a certified B&C scorer and he'd beg to differ my friend.  Believe what you want though if it makes you feel better.  I could post another dozen pics of big bucks that were scored and I'd guess you'd be off the mark on them too.  
 
Got under yer skin, eh JG?
 
Thanks for expert status, I do love hunting those things.
 
They are great looking deer, whatever the score!
 
My apologies to the OP for the threadjack.
-Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JGRaider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2013 at 16:09
Internet comments most definitely do not get under my skin.  I just hate stupid statements that are nothing more than stupid statements.  My apologies to the OP for getting this subject off track.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2013 at 16:16
I've been as critical of Leupold as anyone in the past. I think they've rested on their laurels too much, became too complacent and possibly arrogant and let their competition catch up and surpass them. They've had a real problem with canted reticles. I've seen more canted Leupy reticles than all other brands combined, though that's admittedly an anecdotal observation with no data to back it up. Their side focus mechanics have suffered from backlash in the past. I've owned many of their scopes at all price levels except their "top of the line" stuff at one time or another, and still own several. 

I have to say, I've been very impressed with their newest VX-3 and VX-6 series scopes! Although I wish they would evolve toward fixed eye relief or at least narrow ER variation across the board, but in all other respects, I believe they've made tremendous improvements in recent years and don't get the credit they deserve for doing so. I'm referring to their hunting scopes here, not their "tactical" stuff.

I'm an unabashed Swaro slut as well, own several of their scopes, and have been thrilled with everything Swaro I've ever owned / used. I haven't compared a Z5 scope head-to-head with a VX-6, so I can't comment on the IQ advantages of one over the other, if any exist.

For argument's sake, let's assume the claims made here are correct and the Z5 is better. By "better," I'm referring to image quality, since it would be difficult if not impossible for any of us to use and abuse a large enough representative sampling necessary to determine which is more prone to failure mechanically. I trust Koshkin's assessment of IQ between these two scopes, but I also know that when two optics of similar IQ are compared, different eyes will see things differently, and reasonable arguments can be made for either optic, depending on which set of optical characteristics the viewer prefers.

BUT... let's be realistic here. If the Z5 is indeed "better," then this fact is reflected in its higher price tag. If we accept the premise that Z5 is better than VX-6, and I have no reason to doubt that... well, VX-6 is also considerably less expensive. At the same time, it offers 6:1 zoom ratio vs. Z5's 5:1, so given the very real optical improvements Leupold has made with the VX-6, I personally think its a decent value at its price point. After all, we're comparing 2 scopes with up to $400 price difference here. A hunter equipped with either scope will be very well equipped with an excellent optic more than suitable for any big game hunting, anywhere in the world, in any legal light condition.

What I don't get is when Leupold finally improves their product to achieve equivalent performance levels as their competition at the same price point, they're still frequently criticized for being "overpriced for what you get" and the competing scopes at similar price/performance almost never are. I don't see how anyone who has really seen and used a new VX-3 doesn't come to the conclusion that they are fully comparable to Zeiss Conquest MC (the 3X zoom variation). The VX-6 is a step above, offers optical performance in the same league as Swaro, is priced less than Z5, but offers 6:1 zoom. Seems reasonably priced for the performance vs. tradeoffs to me. Unlike Leupold's previous forays into so-called "alpha class" scopes, I think the VX-6 is actually worth its asking price.

RC, which VX-6 scopes have you used, and what did you compare them to?
Ted


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2013 at 16:27
BTW, though it wasn't one of the two choices, the Leica ER was mentioned a few posts ago. I have a 2.5-10X42 with German #1 reticle, and I'm here to tell you without reservation, it's as good as scopes get. I've compared it directly to Swaro Z6 and Zeiss Victory, and one would be picking some very tiny nits to say conclusively one is "better" than the other. I like things about the Leica ER better than the other alpha scopes, however. The short eyepiece housing design Leica uses provides a bit longer main tube without increasing OAL, which is handy for greater mounting flexibility... especially with a scope with such generous eye relief. I'm also a fan of the "Leica view," characterized by their enhanced contrast. Yes, their plex reticle is very thin... but the German #1 reticle I have is as bold as reticles get.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rustic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2013 at 16:32
Originally posted by BobbyH BobbyH wrote:

If the 3-18X50 Leupold VX-6 is anything like the 2-12X42 optically you will not be disappointed. The only thing the Swaro has over it is weight and marginally better glass.  But with illumination,CDS, and price the VX-6 is hard to beat.  Go put your hands on them and do the touch and feel test. No matter which one of the two you get you probably can't go wrong.



I have for one have been more than impressed by CDS it works well in all weather conditions/temps/elevations.
A vx3 in your preferred mag. range w/CDS is far more attractive product than vx6 IMO... not to mention the proven track record of the vx3.

JG
By the way bitterroot bulls is very good at judging mule deer near and far... I found out the hard way. ;)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JGRaider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2013 at 17:05
Very well said Rifle.  I can't disagree with any of that.   What I'm most baffled by when it comes to Leupold right now, is the lack of a "rainguard" type coating.  They're really missing the boat by at least not adding it to the VX3/VX6.  

rustic, he may be good at it if he sees one in person, but he's not worth a crap at judging them via internet pics. Big Smile  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jon A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2013 at 17:30
Originally posted by JGRaider JGRaider wrote:

Great glass doesn't make up for being a schittty hunter.  Do these guys you know have binos?   

It adds capability which can be useful in some situations.  You will not see fine details as well with any typical carry weight 8X-10X binos as you will with a quality 18X scope, they simply aren't as good a tool for the job.  For finding the deer, yes, very much so.  For verifying point count meets legal/game management/personal requirements at long range, not so much.  Of course if hunting with a low power scope they're the best you've got unless you bust out the spotter.

If one decides he has no need or want for such capability that's fine, but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BobbyH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2013 at 17:32
+1 with Rifle's comments!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JGRaider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2013 at 17:36
Originally posted by Jon A Jon A wrote:

 
It adds capability which can be useful in some situations.  You will not see fine details as well with any typical carry weight 8X-10X binos as you will with a quality 18X scope, they simply aren't as good a tool for the job.  For finding the deer, yes, very much so.  For verifying point count meets legal/game management/personal requirements at long range, not so much.  Of course if hunting with a low power scope they're the best you've got unless you bust out the spotter.

If one decides he has no need or want for such capability that's fine, but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

+1 Jon A, that all sounds great, but I prefer a spotter for verification purposes.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jon A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2013 at 17:50
Of course, everybody does in a perfect world.  But for many situations, a tool that takes a minute or more to dig out of your pack and set up to accomplish a task another tool can accomplish in two seconds before pressing the trigger is not an equal substitute.  Whitetails don't always allow one the luxury of setting up a spotting scope.

My wife has no use for a welder.  That doesn't make it a useless tool for everybody simply because she has no desire to use it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roy Finn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2013 at 18:34
Originally posted by JGRaider JGRaider wrote:

Very well said Rifle.  I can't disagree with any of that.   What I'm most baffled by when it comes to Leupold right now, is the lack of a "rainguard" type coating.  They're really missing the boat by at least not adding it to the VX3/VX6.  
 
I agree that they've missed the boat by not offering those coatings. Leupold does have a repeat customer base that's not impressed with most anything you throw at them too though. Some of those old timer's wear archaic thechnology like a badge of honor. Tell them that a Leupold 4x28 has the worst light transmission of any scope you have used and they tell you the biggest bucks are killed at high noon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 338LAPUASLAP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2013 at 21:59
Originally posted by JGRaider JGRaider wrote:

Well, since several of you guys are just guessing what I meant, I'll go ahead and tell you, at least in one instance, what i meant when I said glass isn't the only criteria.  I've seen most all the highest end stuff, and owned an S&B Summit with duplex reticle.  The thin wires of the duplex reticle were razor thin, and made for a not so great last light scope in light of the supreme glass it had.    The eyebox at higher mags was also not very user friendly.  I also had a SwaroA, at the time only a $750 scope.   After hacking a 140 yard shot at a 190" muley buck, it was determined it had a wandering POI and wouldn't hold zero.  Erector was toast.  Swaro fixed it, I sold it.    Then there's the large oculars that some of the euro scopes have that require higher rings, etc.  I'm not fond of those either.  I'm very fond of the Elite 4200, Conqests, VX3, VX6, and FX3 right now.  Glass is plenty good enough past legal light.  If any of them give me trouble they'll likely go down the road too.  The Conquest HD has my interest right now but I'm not going to pass judgement until I have one mounted on a rifle and use it.  

I have no bias, and could care less what people use or buy.  None of my business, and more power to those who like the high $$ Euros.  I used to be one of those.  I will say this though (flame suit on)...the VX6 is the most user friendly variable I've ever seen, especially at higher mags.  It compares very favorably optically with my buddy's Z3 and Z5 and the duplex reticle is perfect for my 52 yr old eyes.  After only 200 rounds, dials are on the money.  

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