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hatton mann
Optics Apprentice Joined: March/02/2011 Location: ne Status: Offline Points: 179 |
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Posted: October/30/2015 at 14:18 |
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Regarding Primary Arms.
Cruising the interest net; peeps are generally complimentary regarding their customer service. I took a look at at their 1-6 tactical scope. It seems to have a simple (for me that's a good thing) effective ranging reticle. Ultimately, I decided against it. As Ilya has said, scopes at this price point either work (kind of a big if) or they don't. If you have problems , it seems PA will respond. And , has been said re: optics, you will get what you pay for. I decided that a $250 Chine' scope was not what I wanted to trudge through the Zombiee Apocolypse with. Edited by hatton mann - October/30/2015 at 23:53 |
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Magnumdood
Optics Apprentice Joined: January/17/2009 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 226 |
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Once you have been shooting a while and peruse sites such as this one, in which ILya often contributes to discussions, you will come to realize that it is not at all uncommon for an optic to cost twice as much as the rifle it is mounted on. More than anything else in sport shooting, or LE & Military shooting applications, with regard to optics, you get what you pay for. I know you simply don't have the money to drop $1K on a scope right now. Been there, done that, have multiple T-shirts. I was class of 1982 at Texas A&M University. I didn't have a deer rifle or scope. I had to borrow from my buddy who chose to go to work rather than go to college. Flash forward 33 years: Right now I have two Hensoldts that are on the two rifles I use the most. I have a hard time imagining any scope topping the Hensoldt in any facet of optics - reliability, consistency, hold zero, return to zero and last but certainly not least, optical performance. I paid dearly for those two scopes and neither has disappointed me. I also have a couple of Leupold VX 2 1-4x20 scopes on Turkey Shotguns. Other than that I have a smattering of cheap scopes in a box in the event I find a use for them other than as an aiming device for a rifle.
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simpkinst
Optics GrassHopper Joined: March/25/2015 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 5 |
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Thanks for the info. Does the SS have better glass than that Luepy? |
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koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13182 |
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The Firedot on the Leupold is a nice feature and if you must have day bright illumination, it is the cheapest available scope out there with day illumination.
In all other ways, I think the SSDM is a better scope: true 1x on the low end, more flexible reticle, wider FOV, etc. ILya
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simpkinst
Optics GrassHopper Joined: March/25/2015 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 5 |
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I don't mean to hijack this thread, but need to ask. how does the SS 1-4x24 match up against the Mark AR MOD1? Like the firedot - but like the SS reticle even better. |
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rash_powder
Optics GrassHopper Joined: November/07/2011 Location: Larimore, ND Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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I saw a guy on tv once (yes, i know, on tv) shoot something on the order of a mile with an 1890 trap door springfield; he used iron sights and a small bubble level. Put 3 in a row in an 18 inch gong in a life size buffalo silouhette (gong was kill zone). Wish I could remember the show or the guy, but that is gone a long time ago. Probably Guns and Ammo or something like that.
How far you can shoot with a given magnification is up to you. I can't hold 10x steady enough to use. My deer AR has a 14x on it that is used only for spotting, most of my hunting is at 4x, and I really wish I had a 2.5-10. I can tell you the SS line will hold. The 10x I have on my RWS 350 Magnum air rifle has held for easily 500 rounds (not a lot of shooting by any means, but enough to verify it will survive). Air rifles have a double recoile - rearward when you shoot and the piston flies forward, and a second forward recoil when the piston slams home. The literally will rip inferior scopes to pieces internally. It is now happily on my Mod 48 and still doing well. It will be replaced with a 6x as soon as possible. For my hunting guns, we have never worried about hold overs. We don't really shoot past 200 yards, and that is a long one. So we play the ballistics of the round in our favor. Usually about 2" high at 100 yds gives you the ability to hold dead on all the way to 2xx yds and not have the bullet exceed +/-5" (i think thats what it worked out to, been a while since i had to set up a scope). You want to shoot further, so you need some sort of tick marks for hold overs. OR, twist turrets and remember how much you turn. I'm on a tight budget too, and trying to convince myself I don't need half of what I think I do. An SS will do you well. A duplex reticle will too. I used to shoot gophers at multiple ranges, out to hearing the plop of impact after the rifle report with a duplex reticle. My recommendation, being far from expert or anything appreciable, get yourself a low to mid zoom with a standard duplex reticle and learn the scope/rifle combo OR a SS with the tick marks and learn the combo. Play the ballistics of the round you use in your favor. All the math and hold overs are fine and well until you have two seconds on dinner. Its much easier to aim for the kill zone and let one go. Matt
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nksmfamjp
Optics Apprentice Joined: January/06/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 117 |
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Frankly, I would come up with a clear what you want list first:
- low magnification range - high magnification minimum - weight - form factor - i.e. basic size - BDC, Turn turrets or Max Point Blank Range methods - durability factor - safe queen, range, hunting, field sniper, dropping it out of a helicopter(or flight of concrete stairs might happen) - Optical clarity - daytime (not into sun), hunting (dawn to dusk), night use, in a dark building w/o light - Price If you want turrets that you turn when setting up the shot, $300 is a minimum price on the scope. . .and that is a fixed power SS. If you want FFP, that is like $600 min. If you want both and you want it in a decent scope, that is about $1200 min. Now, can you compromise some? A 3-15x with a BDC to 600 yds can be had for about $430 and it will be a decent scope. Check out the Nikon Monarch 3 line with a BDC.
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Cold Trigger Finger
Optics Apprentice Joined: December/20/2013 Location: Int.Alaska Status: Offline Points: 209 |
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The fixed power does not limit you. !!!!!
I've had a SS 10 md on my 6.5 Creedmoor for about 8 month. I wanted the fixed 6× md. But the 10× has been working fine. I will put the fixed 6x SS on the rifle but will keep the 10× I've gobbled up lots of 250-300$ scopes on my rifles but all the 10× SS does is work great. I've killed small Sitka Blacktail forked horn bucks out to 525 yards with rifles in 338 Win Mag and 375 HandH. The highest I set the scope was 6x and the farthest was with a fixed 3× 20 Leupold on the 375. Everyone thinks you need high power variable scopes to hunt with. But I can garrentee u more game shots are lost because the scope was cranked up to some high power. With the quality of the 6×SS glass and coatings and its features and total reliability. You can concentrate on learning the scope, your rifle and shooting. If u want a variable in your price range. Trythe Vortex 1-6 Strike Eagle. If your hunting pigs u probably won't be shooting at many of them at over 300 yards and any good 4x will handle that. No problem. The fixed 6x SS will give plenty of fov for hogs down to 30' . If you go with a cheap scope you will end up regretting it. Go for quality/reliability and learn to use it. |
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If it can't be grown, It's gotta be mined |
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darb
Optics GrassHopper Joined: November/03/2014 Status: Offline Points: 17 |
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Check out the weaver classic 6x24-50mm
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darb
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koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13182 |
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More magnification is not always a good thing. If you magnify a blurry mess, you get a larger blurry mess.
As far as looking at bullet holes goes, if you need to do that, get a spotter. On target distance engagement: how far you can shoot with whatever magnification you have in mind depends on the size of the target, quality of the riflescope and magnification. Of those three magnification plays last fiddle, so to speak. For example, shooting at steel plates of around 18" in size, 4x magnification is perfectly sufficient for my purposes. 6x is a touch easier as is 10x, but that does not make nearly as much as you think. Unless you do varminting or shooting at other small targets, 6x in a decent scope will do everything you need with ease. ILya
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SouthernWoodworking
Optics GrassHopper Joined: January/24/2015 Status: Offline Points: 24 |
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Ok, so Im gonna order the PA 4-14 FFP and I have a buddy who will buy it from me if I dont like it.
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SouthernWoodworking
Optics GrassHopper Joined: January/24/2015 Status: Offline Points: 24 |
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I all honesty, I dont really care about FFP if it got me variable. The fixed power just limits me to much.
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DCAMM94
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: April/19/2008 Location: Fort Worth Status: Offline Points: 3491 |
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SW,
To me, glass quality is as important as magnification. my conquest 4.5-14 gives me more clarity at 100yds than my Vortex Viper at the same distance, and the viper is a 16x. My SS 3-9x42 is almost as good as the vortex as well, and almost half of the magnification. When the guys on here talk about glass quality being more important, these are the types of real-world examples we are trying to relate. I still say that if you like the 10x magnification, and you're wanting to shoot distance, go with the 10x42 SS. It checks every box you want checked except variable/FFP. |
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Although personally I am quite content with existing explosives, I feel we must not stand in the path of improvement. -Winston Churchill
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SouthernWoodworking
Optics GrassHopper Joined: January/24/2015 Status: Offline Points: 24 |
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Wow Koshkin, I now know why they look to you!
Right now, Im deciding between the Ar MOD 1 and the Nikon. I like the 10 power on the Nikon (the more the better) and like their scopes but, the MOA turrets are pushing me away. I guess I could just make a dope chart and it wouldnt matter. I love the price on Ar MOD 1 and like Leupold's warranty (Nikon is good too!). I would rather have more magnification but beggars cant be choosers. How far is x9 good for? How far can you see bullet holes? I would go for a fixed power scope but, I just have to have variable zoom for hunting. Thanks for all the help!
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cheaptrick
MODERATOR Joined: September/27/2004 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 20844 |
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Thank you!
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If at first you don't secede...try..try again.
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DCAMM94
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: April/19/2008 Location: Fort Worth Status: Offline Points: 3491 |
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In the words of James Carville in Old School: "We have no response. That was perfect."
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Although personally I am quite content with existing explosives, I feel we must not stand in the path of improvement. -Winston Churchill
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koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13182 |
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Yes, I have played with it a little, but not too extensively. I did not think it was worth any more of my time after spending a little effort on it. MOA turrets can not be easily changed to mrad. Look, you are trying to get a lot while being on a comparatively strict budget. There is a very basic rule of buying riflescopes: if you are on a budget, focus on fundamentals and compromise on features. The fundamentals are: the scope must hold zero and you must be able to see both your target and the reticle in a variety of lighting conditions. If you want a mil/mil variable scopes with FFP reticle, save your money until you can get the SS 3-9x42. If you really want a mil/mil scope under $400, I suggest you give up the variable magnification and get the SS 6x42 with mrad turrets and a Mil-quad reticle: It will do everything you want in any lighting condition you want. It may not look sexy, but it is dead nuts reliable. If you want the turrets to track every time, your options in the sub$400 price range are extremely limited. There is a great variety of inexpensive scopes out there that claim every feature known to man. They all look great until you go shooting and the glass is foggy, the zero shifts and the turrets do not track. Anyhow, if you insist on a mrad reticle, mrad turrets (with some expectation of decent tracking) and variable magnification, the Leupold Mark AR Mod 1 I linked above is more or less it. P5 turrets have decent feel and 0.1 mrad clicks. All that having been said, for any sort of distance shooting, I would take the fixed power 6x42 SS over the Mark 1 Leupold any day. ILya
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cheaptrick
MODERATOR Joined: September/27/2004 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 20844 |
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I feel like I stole my rear focus SS 10x. It's ridiculous. Probably the best value I've ever made in gun related purchases.
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If at first you don't secede...try..try again.
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MikieG
Optics Apprentice Joined: December/10/2014 Location: Oklahoma Status: Offline Points: 187 |
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The idea of bare minimum is interesting. I have seen the Bushnell mildot scopes that sell for around $200 on Barrett M82A1 rifles. I have also seen Leupold MK4 clones on R700 custom shop rifles. In both cases the optics did their jobs very well.
But for me the 10x42M SS has been a great optic. $299 for rear focus and $350 for side focus. Not to mention they come with mil turrets and the new reticle that has 10 mils below the x hair. That scope has 900 yards of hold over in the reticle alone for 168gr 308!!!! I used to mount the scopes in a big vise and view a grid board exactly 100 yards down range. Then i would spend 5 minutes dialing around the grid checking the accuracy of the turrets. The very first tine i did this exercise on a brand new 10xSS i found 10moa moved the reticle 10.5 inches. Thinking that aint right, i dialed all around. Every time the scope returned exactly to zero. So i called SWFA. They said that their turrets were perfectly calibrated for MOA. When i insisted this brand new scope moved 10.5" after dialing 10moa, there was silence on the phone. Then the SWFA rep informed me an MOA is 1.047 inches. Ten MOA is actually 10.47 inches. I knew this. Except for 15 years i got so used to using the quick one moa equals 1 inch, i had forgotten 1 moa is actually 1.047 inches. I felt so stupid. So i decided to check all my 10x SS scopes. Every one of my 5 scopes were dead on the money. Right from the oldest one that was 15 years old to the brand new one. They all were EXACTLY dead on. The mil reticles are always perfect mils. The turrets repeat with exact movement. The glass is damned good. What more can a guy want for well under $400? When i went to my very first sniper school, i showed up with my 10xSS. After seeing all the badass optics on the line, ones costing more than i paid for the truck that carried me there, i felt that maybe my 10x would not be up to the task of 1000 yard shooting. 9 schools later, i have seen failures from optics that shocked the crap outta me! NEVER saw a failed SS. That school only shoots out to 1000 plus a few yards. There never was a shot that i couldnt make with absolute confidence and authority. This year i am going to Accuracy 1st in Texas. In that school they have the students shooting a 16" target at 1 mile. So for this i am refitting my rifles to the 5-20x SS. Plus i want illumination something not offered in the 10x42M line. So the minimum in my case has served me extremely well for 18 years and counting. I once read about reviewer that used the 10xSS to drive nails and the scope still worked! |
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cheaptrick
MODERATOR Joined: September/27/2004 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 20844 |
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Only for those that don't know the difference....
Welcome to Optics Talk, BTW.
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