Visit the SWFA.com site to check out our current specials. |
AR10 ?? |
Post Reply | Page <1234> |
Author | |
RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Personally, I never could muster any enthusiasm for the AR10/AR308. It has clumsy handling for my taste compared to AR15. To me, it negates the fun aspects of an AR platform rifle to begin with -- the ability to interchange a nearly endless combination of parts to make something truly unique, in a lighter, handier, more compact package. AR10 doesn't enjoy the Milspec standardization as AR15 parts do, so it suffers from parts compatibility issues if you build your own, and there's a much smaller selection of parts available for it overall vs. AR15. If you don't like 5.56/.223, cartridges like 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, .458 SOCOM give you more than adequate capability for most applications up to medium distances. If I want more power than what those bring to the table, I'm going with a bolt action anyway.
|
|
Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
|
mike650
Optics God Joined: May/14/2006 Location: West of Rockies Status: Offline Points: 14569 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
|
“A hunt based only on trophies taken falls far short of what the ultimate goal should be.” – Fred Bear
|
|
Rancid Coolaid
MODERATOR Joined: January/19/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9318 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Ted, I think the flaw in your logic is prioritizing the tool over the task. That leads to the inevitable discussion of "do you really need...", leading to a thorough review of circumstances. For me, a large frame AR and its +2-5 pounds over an AR15 is an acceptable penalty for the additional kinetic energy it provides. I think of the 6.5Grendel vs 6.5Creedmore (or 6.5 vs 308) similar to 308 vs 300WM. In comparing 308 to 6.5G, the +300FPS in similar bullet class makes enough compelling argument for me to be happy with my AR10. That said, I am now looking at 6.5G data and might have a 6.5G in my near future. Where mine will see most use, I can't have animals run, and a bit more insurance is worth the extra effort. I'd rather haul an extra few pounds around than I would track through very rough country to get to an animal that ran. For long range shooting on a range, I don't care, I don't shoot those ARs on the range for tight groups.
|
|
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn. Equality is something you whine about not being given. |
|
RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
I prioritize both the tool AND the task. To me, if you want better ballistic capability than the AR15 permits, you're out of AR territory to begin with.
Bolt actions give me the ballistic advantages of any cartridge my heart desires, while giving me greater mag box length latitude to load a wider selection of bullets, far better triggers, better reliability, and don't have the handling qualities of a chainsaw. The only advantage AR10 offers over a bolt action for any non-combat related application is rate of fire and mag capacity, neither is very critical for hunting. The lone exception might be feral pig eradication where there's a large group of them, but I've yet to see the pig that caused a bullet launched from a 6.5G or 6.8 to deflect helplessly off the hide without digging in. Kinetic energy is a poor predictor of killing power because it over emphasizes velocity and doesn't take a bullet's terminal performance into consideration. Bullet construction and its effect on rate of expansion and retained mass is what really matters. Given today's bullets, the amount of charcoal behind the bullet is way over-rated.
|
|
Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
|
Rancid Coolaid
MODERATOR Joined: January/19/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9318 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
We'll agree to disagree; which, for our generation, did not automatically mean one of us was a racist and/or fascist. I've long been a "big bullet with moderate speed" over a "tiny bullet moving super fast" - and thus the love of the 45 ACP. The issue for me comes down to that 2500FPS line where temporary cavitation wounds really make a big difference. I want a bullet that expends the most energy possible prior to exit and that runs close to 2500FPS at the target. And that is, at reasonable ranges I encounter, a 308 or the like. I agree bullet construction goes a very long way (which is a big part of why my 45s stay home most days and a 9mm goes with) but have lots of anecdotal evidence that a bigger bullet well placed is better than a smaller bullet well placed. Boundary conditions, for my part in this, are hunting applications. For defensive and offensive weapon deployment on 2-way ranges, I have a very, very different view of ballistics.
|
|
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn. Equality is something you whine about not being given. |
|
RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
It's entirely a personal preference thing. I'm not arguing that velocity on target and its effect on temporary wound cavity is unimportant; far from it. I want the same dramatic temporary wound cavity you describe if possible. I'm just saying that I don't like the way an AR10 handles and think the weight:performance ratio is way skewed on that platform...too much weight and bulk in exchange for too little performance improvement. That's just my opinion, of course.
I like ARs, just not AR10s. If I want or need better terminal performance than what cartridges suitable for AR15 provide, then I'm leaving the AR at home to begin with and picking up a bolt action. The way I see it is an AR is in its element as a short to medium range weapon. The more distance you put between you and a sentient being, the less important having rapid follow-up shots becomes. I'm for condensing things down to the core elements necessary to accomplish a goal as much as possible, and a bolt action ticks all the check boxes in that regard. A bolt action offers the advantage of minimum protuberances, minimum mechanical complexity, usually a better trigger, greater reliability, and minimum weight (while permitting the important weight distribution in the right place), all while providing way better ballistic performance because you aren't constrained by having to keep COAL under 2.8" for function. This gives you greater latitude in bullet selection and seating depth, which again gives you better terminal performance.
Today's selection of bullets has completely thrown the old "minimum caliber" rules of thumb completely out the window. To anyone who would argue that adding 2 more lbs to your rifle is no big deal, I ask you this: Given the choice, would you ever voluntarily core out a (hunting) rifle buttstock or mill a slot inside a forend and pour in 2 lbs worth of lead shot mixed with epoxy? If your answer to that is no, then weight does matter. |
|
Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
|
Rancid Coolaid
MODERATOR Joined: January/19/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9318 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Weight matters, but in a context. Circumstance dictates the tool to use, I agree AR10 is often the wrong tool; but would contend that, given the right set of circumstances, it is a great tool.
|
|
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn. Equality is something you whine about not being given. |
|
RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Agreed on all counts, but if forced to make trade offs, even when weight is taken in context, I believe AR10 to offer a poor return on investment in the weight:performance ratio. For the same or less weight than an AR10, a guy can weild far greater horsepower in a bolt gun than .308 and other AR10 compatible rounds provide. Even the same rounds you’d chamber in a 10 will perform better in a bolt rifle. The latter allows greater mag box length for better bullet selection and COAL latitude, as well as a longer barrel at the same gun OAL due to considerably shorter receiver...all while tipping the scales at 2-3 lbs less, being significantly shorter in profile view, being more bulletproof functionally, better balanced, and lacking all the sharp corners and protrusions that stab you in the back while sling carrying. To me the slower follow-up shots and (sometimes) less mag capacity is overshadowed by those attributes.
I’m sure there’s some narrow niche where an AR10 is the superior tool over either its smaller sibling or a more powerful bolt rifle. I just can’t think of a single example myself. But again, that’s just my opinion. We all have different tastes in women, liquor, and tools. |
|
Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
|
supertool73
Optics God Superstool Joined: January/03/2008 Status: Offline Points: 11814 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Who cares about all that crap. What happened to just wanting a cool gun.
|
|
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.
"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own." |
|
RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Good point.
|
|
Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
|
Rancid Coolaid
MODERATOR Joined: January/19/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9318 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
This past weekend I had 3 coyotes running left to right in front of me at 100 yards, with an AR10 in 6.5CM. Guess how it ended? Predict how it could have with a bolt gun. There was less and 2 seconds visibility as they broke one tree line and headed into another.
For clarity: I had the 6.5CM, not the yotes. In rereading that, it could be interpreted both ways. For clarity. |
|
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn. Equality is something you whine about not being given. |
|
RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
And how would it have ended any differently with an AR15 in any caliber that would function in a 15? In fact, I'd argue that in the majority of similar cases repeated, your hit % would be greater due to a livelier, handier parcel. But you're totally missing my point. Given the ability to choose among the full gamut of available chamberings, an AR15 will handle the overwhelming majority of scenarios where an AR shines, at the short to moderate shot distances. When shot distance gets far enough that a bullet launched from the 15 is losing steam, the bolt gun capably takes over the baton. As shot distance increases, rapid follow-up shots become increasingly less important, for multiple reasons, so in that realm the bolt rifle's advantages outweighs its disadvantages most of the time... again, in my opinion. During this past November and December, I killed exactly 25 hogs, ranging in size from about 40 lbs to 280 lbs. With a .300 Blackout...subsonic. All 25 died. The longest shot was 118 yards, and most were 50-75 yard shots. A .308 wouldn't have killed them any deader. Shot placement trumps everything else. These were all targets of opportunity while I was deer hunting; I wasn't specifically hog hunting. I took along my suppressed .300 BLK with my deer rifle because it offered the advantage of being quiet enough to zap pigs without potentially disturbing nearby deer unless they were standing really close to my pork victims. In the past, before I finally broke down and got the can, I was hesitant to take shots at pigs while deer hunting, for fear I might spook nearby deer and potentially miss an opportunity at an unseen buck. There were several occasions this fall when I killed a pig, and deer within sight only 75-100 yards from the pig didn't react to the shot.
|
|
Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
|
Kickboxer
MODERATOR Moderator Joined: February/13/2008 Status: Offline Points: 23679 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Funny... I carry my suppressed .300BLK almost everywhere along with my "primary" rifle for hunting, now. Is there a "hogtacular" on the horizon? |
|
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.
There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living |
|
Rancid Coolaid
MODERATOR Joined: January/19/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9318 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
I guess my issue in all this is AR10 is comparable in weight to my bolt guns. It loses a bit in velocity and wins a bit in rate if fire.
In the end, I am not willing to risk a lost animal because I could have humped 2 more pounds of bigger gun but chose not to. Taken to its logical conclusion, it becomes absurd, I know; but I am still of a mind that having as many bases covered as possible is a good thing - and the AR10 checks lots of boxes. |
|
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn. Equality is something you whine about not being given. |
|
urbaneruralite
Optics Journeyman Joined: January/03/2008 Status: Offline Points: 479 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
A deer rifle with an AR strapped to it seems a little bulky...
This forum has no pot stirring emoticon.
|
|
koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13182 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
My 308 Fix weighs 6.2 lbs empty. I think you need a lighter bolt gun and a 6.5 Grendel AR. ILya |
|
Kickboxer
MODERATOR Moderator Joined: February/13/2008 Status: Offline Points: 23679 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
|
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.
There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living |
|
RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Yes, pretty bulky...except when hunting out of a fixed box blind, as I was doing all season. Since I was returning to the blind every day, I just left my guns inside the blind for as long as I was there camping on the property. That way, carrying nothing to and from the blind in the dark was decidedly un-bulky.
|
|
Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
|
cheaptrick
MODERATOR Joined: September/27/2004 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 20844 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
"Unbulky"??
I expected so much more from a TAMU alum...
|
|
If at first you don't secede...try..try again.
|
|
Peddler
Optics God Joined: July/04/2012 Location: Oswego,NY Status: Online Points: 13528 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
An unbulky 7 Winkle!💥
|
|
When you are dead, you don't know you are dead.It is difficult only for others.
It is the same when you are stupid. |
|
Post Reply | Page <1234> |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |