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Deer Hunting Scope |
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Sparky
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: July/15/2007 Location: SD Status: Offline Points: 4569 |
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Just a FYI you need 50 posts before you can edit your posts. Your almost half way there!
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Sparky
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: July/15/2007 Location: SD Status: Offline Points: 4569 |
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For some a large exit pupil is not useful in the real world. Since the max diameter a healthy eye will dilate is somewhere around 7 or 8 I think. I can't remember right now and I am sure someone will have the correct number. And as one ages that number decreases. If your eyes can't dilate to make use of the large exit pupil then it is essentially wasted.
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RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
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Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
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tahqua
MODERATOR Have You Driven A Ford Lately? Joined: March/27/2006 Location: Michigan, USA Status: Offline Points: 9042 |
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....What Ted said. My observations exactly.
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Doug
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RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
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An analogy...
Walk outside in waning light equivalent to the final minutes of legal big game hunting hours. Locate an object at moderate distance away from you, say 100 yards for the sake of discussion. Shine a flashlight on the object. You can of course see greater detail of the object, which has now been illuminated or is "brighter." Now turn the flashlight off and walk much closer to the object, say 10 - 15 yards away from it. Even without the aid of the flashlight, you can often see greater detail of the object in spite of the fact it is "dimmer" because you are seeing it with greater resolution (at greater magnification, if you will). The degree to which you can resolve greater detail at closer range of course depends on the size, color, and texture of the object being observed and the available light level. The point is, the blanket suggestion that turning down the power to gain a larger exit pupil by itself always improves an optic's low light utility is simply false. "Brightness" isn't the only attribute contributing to optimal low light performance. Detail acuity is also important. Increasing magnification improves detail resolution in any light, as long as detrimental optical aberrations aren't revealed as a result of doing so. Provided that the optic's resulting exit pupil diameter still remains larger than or close to the viewer's eye pupil diameter after increasing magnification, the magnification increase improves the viewer's ability to resolve detail in low light, the same as in good light. At some point, further increasing magnification of course causes low light performance to take a nose dive as the exit pupil starts becoming so small that light reaching the eye is significantly reduced.
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Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
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JGRaider
Optics Master Joined: February/06/2008 Status: Offline Points: 1540 |
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Absolutely.
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Rancid Coolaid
MODERATOR Joined: January/19/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9318 |
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My eyes and ego tell me Ted is wrong.
Wrong wrong wrong. Probably wrong: Maybe wrong. In truth, I agree - to a point: much like 4K TVs with the brightness turned way down: you can have a super hi-res image - but with not enough light to resolve. I understand your point. My experience: when need of light is the greatest limiter, increased magnification makes a bad problem worse. Then again, now I just clip on a 3+ and keep right on shooting! |
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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn. Equality is something you whine about not being given. |
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RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
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But that's a sweeping generalization without qualifications, as it depends entirely on the amount of magnification increase, the optic's effective objective diameter, and the optical quality and coatings effectiveness. The point remains, a variable rifle scope's best low light performance is never at lowest magnification, unless said scope has an unusually high base magnification and an unusually small objective size relative to magnification. Good low light performance is about being able to see the greatest detail in the available lighting, enabling precision bullet placement...and that doesn't always mean the "brightest" image. A bright image with low resolution is less useful to precision shot placement than a more detailed yet dimmer image, as long as you can clearly see details on your target to begin with. Increasing magnification increases an optic's dim light utility up to the point that the resulting exit pupil size is still larger than or roughly equivalent to the shooter's dilated eye pupil. Beyond that, as the optic's exit pupil becomes progressively smaller, more magnification begins to decrease low light utility. |
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Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
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Shenko
Optics Apprentice Joined: April/20/2008 Location: WA Status: Offline Points: 249 |
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I've tested this with 5 different scopes, that I can think of. 20mm, 32, 38, and 50mm objectives. Tests were done at sundown, sitting in dark shadow, looking at a target that is in shadows. I'm not far from the Canadian border, in a mountain valley, so twilight lasts a while. There is plenty of time for my pupils to dilate and my night vision to kick in.
I can look through a scope that is set at its lowest magnification (1.5, 2, or 3X) until it's too dark to see the target. I can then turn the magnification up, and I can again clearly see the target. When it gets too dark at that setting, I can turn the power up again, and see the target again. For me, the target is visible latest when the exit pupil of the scope is between 5.5mm and 6mm. This is true for every scope I've tested. My 50mm scope lets me see the target latest when it is set at 8.5X. At 2X, 3X, or 4X, my 32mm and 50mm scopes are equal in low light performance. With the 50 mm scope set at 8.5X, I can see the target a lot longer (at sundown, as it gets darker) than I can see it with my 32mm scope set at any power. Like I said, I have done this more than a couple times. There is no question that this is how it works, with my eyes, and my scopes, in my own back yard. Edited by Shenko - June/06/2018 at 23:17 |
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probably
Optics Apprentice Joined: June/01/2016 Location: Old America Status: Offline Points: 70 |
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Never! The issue as I see it is that "last light" for many scopes is sometimes more than a few minutes before "last light" through something like my diavari at 2.5 power. When it's pretty much dark, I'm still seeing things at 2.5 power, while 6, 8, or 10 power are done for. Again, this is not when my buddy with his vx3 is saying that it's dark. It's when it's so dark that you can not discern an object by looking directly at it with the naked eye. Edited by probably - June/07/2018 at 00:47 |
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Shenko
Optics Apprentice Joined: April/20/2008 Location: WA Status: Offline Points: 249 |
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Any decent scope will get you long past the point where "it's so dark that you can not discern an object by looking directly at it with the naked eye."
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RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
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Did you guys read the info in the link I posted about 8 posts up?
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Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
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RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
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I have 3 Diavari 2.5-10x50s. My Diavaris obviously work differently than yours. Instead of thinking about generally “seeing things” at a given power, instead think about actually putting a bullet on a precise spot on target at moderate distance. There will likely be a point somewhere in your zoom range where a little more magnification trumps “brightness” in your ability to accomplish the goal your scope was designed for - putting bullets on target. This “sweet spot” where you obtain the optimal balance between perceived brightness and more detail won’t be at lowest magnification unless you have very unusual eyesight. Of course, eventually you run out of light altogether and it becomes too dark for your scope to be useful at any magnification. |
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Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
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RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
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Mirrors my observations too. Yet despite that, I still prefer 36-42mm objective scopes on most of my BG hunting rifles just due to my preference toward keeping things tidy. |
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Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
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JGRaider
Optics Master Joined: February/06/2008 Status: Offline Points: 1540 |
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There is little practical difference between a high quality 42mm hunting scope and a high quality 50mm scope in the field, at least IME. Having a usable reticle is much more important in very poor light.
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RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
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I agree with that, given my eyesight and my preference toward keeping top end magnification at or below 10x for a general purpose BG hunting scope. I’m willing to accept some minor tradeoffs in absolute dim light performance in exchange for keeping my scoped rifles a little lighter, better balanced, and more streamlined. Light conditions and my chosen optics have never prevented me from taking a game animal I wanted during legal hunting hours.
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Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
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Rancid Coolaid
MODERATOR Joined: January/19/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9318 |
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I agree, I over-generalized. I should also point out that my "low light" hunting is often after legal game hunting hours and is shooting at pigs and coyotes and other nocturnal beasts. In that truly low light scenario, almost everything happens at the lowest mag setting possible. Or with NV. Although hunting pigs in an open field under moonlight is indeed fun, and scope choice becomes a big part of success or failure.
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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn. Equality is something you whine about not being given. |
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Scrumbag
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: October/22/2013 Location: London, UK Status: Offline Points: 4205 |
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There is still a big market for 8x56 German / Austrian scopes in Europe as wild boar are often shot under the moon and NV / Thermal sights aren't legal. (I have an 8x56 Swarovaski Kurz with illuminated No4 ret for this purpose) Scrummy
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Was sure I had a point when I started this post...
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RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
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A good portion of my hunting time is spent doing that very activity — hogs and predators at night. I generally spend 40-50 days of every year hunting something with scoped rifles. Even under the lowest light, if I could use the scope at all, best conventional scope performance has never been at lowest magnification. For the past year, I’ve converted to thermal optics exclusively for my night hunting.
Run the numbers on the scope low light performance calculator at the link I posted and read the description of the terminology and calcs used. Then note how the data shows low light performance for a given scope progressively improves with increased magnification until continued magnification increase causes the scope’s exit pupil to become smaller than your dilated eye pupil. |
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Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
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Scrumbag
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: October/22/2013 Location: London, UK Status: Offline Points: 4205 |
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Interesting you use a thermal sight. In the UK the serious fox shooters use a combination of thermal, NV and lamps.
Some of the serious guys I know say "Find 'em with thermal, kill 'em with NV" I would love a thermal spotter for deer hunting, especially in thick cover
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Was sure I had a point when I started this post...
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