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Which Rifle for Daughter's Birthday Present? |
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frozentundra
Optics GrassHopper Joined: January/07/2015 Location: WI Status: Offline Points: 38 |
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Posted: June/10/2018 at 18:10 |
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My daughter is turning 12. She is familliar with the AR platform from S&W M&P 15-22 and has just completed her first year on the school trap shooting team. She used a 6.7 pound 24" barrel semiauto 20 gauge for that. She had a lot of fun and did very well.
I'd like to get her a very lightweight, compact, handy rifle for learning positional shooting techniques, sling supported techniques, learning trajectory and wind drift, short range hunting, target shooting, and plinking. Like a sub-caliber version of something approaching Cooper's scout rifle, but with a modern traditionally mounted optic, and optimised for a very small person to shoot/carry. This rifle would be her constant companion, will probably take a real beating, and be shot a ton. In order to facilitate high volume shooting practice, it would have to be light recoiling and have relatively inexpensive ammunition available. I was thinking either .223/5.56 or 7/62x39. Most of our shooting would be from 300 meters and in, and frequently 200 meters and in. Whitetail deer at a very modest range would be the largest game we'd be after. Varmint/predator hunting at a slightly longer range. A 16" barrel would be optimal. Short length of pull prefered, too. Weight should be about 6 pounds maximum for just the rifle, I think. I've been looking at a BCM ELW-F lightweight upper, which could be used with my AR's bolt carrier group and lower receiver to produce a slightly sub 6 pound AR. Some other options would be: CZ 527 youth carbine in 7.62x39 or 5.56. It's light for sure, but perhaps just a little longer than optimal. And it's so pretty it'd be a shame to use it as a beater rifle. Tikka T3x compact lite in .223 (or older T3 compact lite). It's heavier and longer (20"), but the action on these are soooo smooth. Ruger American Ranch rifles are perfect looking, except that they don't come with short length of pull. I'd probably have to try to chop up and retrofit the stock for shorter LOP. I am also concerned that they wouldn't cycle and feed very easily and smoothly for someone without a lot of strength, being that they feed from double column magazines. Ruger American Compact .223 is 18", light, and short LOP, but also has Ruger craptastic rotary mags. I don't know if they would feed smoothly/well either. Why does nobody make a lightweight 16" 7.62x39 or 5.56 bolt gun with a short length of pull stock? It really seems like that should be a thing! A lightweight AR can certainly fill that void, but they don't lend themselves to optimising cheek weld/comb height for use with optics. I may just go the AR route anyway and try to mount the scope a tad lower somehow. Anybody have any good ideas or advice for me? I don't know as much about rifles as some of the seasoned enthusiasts or pros, so I could use all the help I can get. Thanks.
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mike650
Optics God Joined: May/14/2006 Location: West of Rockies Status: Offline Points: 14569 |
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Bolt action 7mm08
(Dad can use it too) š |
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āA hunt based only on trophies taken falls far short of what the ultimate goal should be.ā ā Fred Bear
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RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
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^^^Yes! What he said.
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Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
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frozentundra
Optics GrassHopper Joined: January/07/2015 Location: WI Status: Offline Points: 38 |
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If it was primarily for hunting, I would likely do this. However, this rifle will be mostly for long days at the range, putting as many rounds down the barrel as are reasonably custructive for learning to shoot. If I had her shooting 50 or 100 rounds of 7mm08 through a 6 pound rifle, I don't think she would like me very much! Also, the ammo isn't very inexpensive for plinking. We will probably only hunt very occasionally compared to how much we go to the range (like every weekend)
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Son of Ed
Chuck Norris Joined: June/18/2011 Location: TEXAS Status: Offline Points: 122167 |
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257 Roberts
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Visit the Ed Show
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supertool73
Optics God Superstool Joined: January/03/2008 Status: Offline Points: 11814 |
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The comment about ARs not being good for cheek weld with optics. If u buy a proper ar type mount they are the best for proper cheek weld IMO. The ruger american stocks are terrible IMO. They feed ok from the rotery mags but they are a little rough as you are worried about but i think that could be handled with a little practice. They make a muddy girl version in .243 with shorter stock. I have one of those for my wife and its nice. 18ā batrel
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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.
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frozentundra
Optics GrassHopper Joined: January/07/2015 Location: WI Status: Offline Points: 38 |
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If you don't mind me asking, which mounts are you using for scoping ARs? I wish there were mounts readily available that were lower than a 'true co witness' height (with the plain of the iron sights). I have an SWFA SSALT mount, but it puts the scope a bit high for my optimum cheek weld. I think it's because I have high cheekbones and a relatively thin facial structure compared to many. I get more of a jaw or chin weld than a true cheek weld compared to my bolt gun with custom comb riser. I think for smaller kids this is often even more pronounced. On the other hand, I have a friend with a large head/face that can't come close to being able to see through my bolt gun setup. I think this is why they have adjustable comb risers on precision rifles. One size definitely doesn't fit all.
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supertool73
Optics God Superstool Joined: January/03/2008 Status: Offline Points: 11814 |
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American defense makes some that are a little lower than a ssalt mount. The first one is a bit to low for me, but may work for you. The second is still lower than ssalt i think
https://swfa.com/american-defense-ad-recon-s-scope-mount-278.html https://swfa.com/american-defense-ad-recon-scope-mount-208.html Edited by supertool73 - June/10/2018 at 22:20 |
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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.
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RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
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My suggestion was based on the fact you said the rifle would also be used for deer hunting, and you didnāt define what āhigh volumeā means to you. I donāt know the laws in your state, but in some states, the use of any cartridge firing .22 cal bullets isnāt legal for deer. If you plan to shoot several hundred or more rounds per range session, I believe .223 is your best choice. If legal in your state, I would have no problem hunting deer with .223 with moderate range, careful shot placement, and using the right bullets being a given. |
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Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
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frozentundra
Optics GrassHopper Joined: January/07/2015 Location: WI Status: Offline Points: 38 |
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[/QUOTE] My suggestion was based on the fact you said the rifle would also be used for deer hunting, and you didnāt define what āhigh volumeā means to you. I donāt know the laws in your state, but in some states, the use of any cartridge firing .22 cal bullets isnāt legal for deer. If you plan to shoot several hundred or more rounds per range session, I believe .223 is your best choice. If legal in your state, I would have no problem hunting deer with .223 with moderate range, careful shot placement, and using the right bullets being a given.[/QUOTE] .223 is the minimum caliber for deer here in WI. I know it isn't optimal, but I think that judicious selection of distance and shot angle, combined with proper execution of marksmanship principles, is probably more ethical than a lot of what happens with larger calibers. I've got a modest stash of the Federal 62 grain 'Fusion' load. I've also been considering 7.62x39, as I don't think the recoil would be punishing, and there is a wide selection of cheap bulk ammo available. Wolf and Golden Tiger both fill a niche for certain types of shooting, and steel cased Hornady SST is also relatively inexpensive. What I can't understand for the life of me is why nobody seems to make a 16" bolt gun in 7.62x39 or .223 that has a short LOP stock. The Ruger American Ranch is close, but the stock seems a bit longer than optimal. As I said before, this type of gun should be a thing that exists! Am I just missing something? Does somebody make one and I just don't know about it? A Lot of what we'd be doing would revolve around practicing positional rifle marksmanship, slings supported positions, and other jackass positions off of barricades. Also, lots of hiking rural property while carrying a rifle. A tiny 16" carbine with short LOP seems best for these roles. Perhaps a very lightweight AR is simply the best option at this time.... |
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Scrumbag
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: October/22/2013 Location: London, UK Status: Offline Points: 4205 |
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A couple of good buddies of mine have the CZ527 in 7.62x39 and are very happy with it. I have a .223 CZ527 American and like it a lot.
As Ed said, .257Roberts is a very capable chambering and I have one of those. Not always the easiest to feed but I have put a 12ogr Nosler partition through both sides of several fairly chunky fallow deer. I would say a .243W might be the thing though you are a bit limited in some cases for heavier hunting bullets. (For bigger game and deer, I'd be a little wary of .223 Rem. Not impossible to use but little margin for error) Scrummy
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Was sure I had a point when I started this post...
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Peddler
Optics God Joined: July/04/2012 Location: Oswego,NY Status: Offline Points: 13526 |
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I think you might be asking for too much from one rifle and I donāt like .223 for Deer.
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When you are dead, you don't know you are dead.It is difficult only for others.
It is the same when you are stupid. |
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RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
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Maybe itās just due to my size and amount of shooting I do, but I donāt notice any significant recoil difference between 7.62x39 and 7-08/6.5 Creedmoor class of cartridges. I personally have never found 7.62x39 factory ammo to shoot very well, so if target accuracy is the main goal with this gun, it would be one of the last chamberings Iād select. For great inherent accuracy and good availability in factory ammo combined with fairly mild recoil AND great performance on deer sized animals AND a great selection of factory rifles with proper barrel twist out of the box all in one sweet package, itās currently impossible to beat 6.5 Creedmoor. Still, if extremely high volume shooting with good inherent accuracy and nearly nonexistent recoil that is still relatively inexpensive to feed is the main goal, I still believe .223 is your best bet. It isnāt ideal for deer and would be way down my list of preferred deer cartridges, but it will work within the limitations & conditions already discussed. As for short LOP stocks, you can go with either an AR with adjustable buttstock, or if you want a bolt action, the Ruger M77 MKII Hawkeye Compact is available in .223 and has a 12.5ā LOP. |
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Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
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frozentundra
Optics GrassHopper Joined: January/07/2015 Location: WI Status: Offline Points: 38 |
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Bingo!! I'd never heard of a Ruger M77 MKII Hawkeye Compact. I knew someone must make such a rifle. This reinstills my hope for humanity. Thank you! I have a very heavy 24" barrel Savage FCP-SR with an 10x SWFA SS and Harris Bipod in 6.5 creedmoor that I'll have to let her try, as well as an AK with a Zhukov stock. We'll shoot these back to back with a 16" AR and see what she thinks. However, I suspect that you are correct above; at the end of the day, when pure shooting practice and marksmanship principles are the primary goal, the .223 is going to be unbeatable. At least when lightweight, low recoil, and cheap ammo are also indispensable criteria. |
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supertool73
Optics God Superstool Joined: January/03/2008 Status: Offline Points: 11814 |
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300 blackout shooting 110 to 120 super sonic bullets is pretty much the same thing and the 7.62x39. They make those in bolt actions. Also Ruger makes both of them in the American and you can buy a shorter LOP stock from Ruger for those guns. IMO buying a bolt action chambered in a AR/AK round is not popular because a .308 will do everything a 7.62x39 or 300 blk will do. You can load them low recoil with both less powder and lighter bullets and also load them standard for larger game. In a way you are just handicapping yourself with one of those calibers in a bolt gun, unless you have a specific reason like shooting subsonic 300 blk with a suppressor. You can buy reduced recoil ammo for many calibers which might be a good option.
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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.
"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own." |
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Sparky
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: July/15/2007 Location: SD Status: Offline Points: 4569 |
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A friend of mine used a Howa 1500 barreled action with a Boyd's stock. And figured he could just upgrade the stock when needed.
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Tip69
Optics Master Extraordinaire Tip Stick Joined: September/27/2005 Location: Nebraska Status: Offline Points: 4155 |
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if you could go with 2 rifles... I'd throw the .17 Hornet in there for practicing... it has nearly the ballistics of the .223 and recoil is non-existent! Savage makes a fairly inexpensive one and I'm sure you could get the stock cut down. Then you could go with a 6.5 Cred or 7mm-08 for deer.
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take em!
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Rancid Coolaid
MODERATOR Joined: January/19/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9318 |
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The new shooter training I do is on a Tikka T3 varmint, no recoil issues, smooth bolt, plenty accurate, and easy for new shooters to learn the basics.
In marksmanship, I start them with bolt guns, almost always. I also have a full size Savage 22LR perfect for kids - suppressed especially - but too small for your purposes. I agree 223 is pushing the limits of a deer rifle, but getting them comfortable with a bolt action rifle pays dividends later. Though if she is good with s 20-gauge recoil, she might be fine with a bit more than 223. The recommendation of. 7-08 is good, as is 243. Both are stout in a 6 pound gun though. Iād say get the Tikka, if she outgrows it, you have a great plinker or can sell it for most of what you have in it. |
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Freedom is something you take.
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cpwomack
Optics Journeyman Joined: January/29/2009 Location: Chattanooga Status: Offline Points: 550 |
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I recently purchased one one the Howa mini actions in 6.5 Grendel. My 9 year old daughter who is 4'6" and weighs 70 pounds has no problem handling the recoil and has already put over 200 rounds through it. You can get Hornady American Gunner ammunition for roughly $.40 a round so it is not expensive to shoot and is more than capable for deer sized game.
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Sgt. D
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: February/20/2008 Location: North Carolina Status: Offline Points: 4525 |
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Been watching this progress, curious to see where it would go. You laid out a pretty specific list of what you hoped to achieve. You've got an inspired young shooter that will learn bad habits just as fast as good ones. It looks to me that after all has been hashed out, the AR is what you had in mind and for good reason. Most brands can be made to shoot with really good accuracy. If you hope to get one that shoots above average out of the box you will need to look at the higher end choices. Yes you can occasionally get a good one from the budget brands but that is a huge gamble. Most lowers are going to be good enough but, you will need to upgrade the trigger. The upper, bolt carrier group and barrel are key for accuracy. Even in some of the upper end components I usually face the receiver recrown the muzzle and check the head space and adjust if needed. There are other little tweaks that can help with accuracy on uppers that "could do better". As for cheek weld and scope height you could be fighting an uphill battle until she really understands sight picture and how to use every aspect of that picture to her advantage. If you're going to give her the best start you can afford you also have to consider spending for equal quality glass. Many of us here are more than willing to help where we can but we all have a wide range of experiences and more opinions than is legal. When you have decided what you are going to do (rifle and scope) we can help with the next steps if you think anyone here can. look forward to seeing what you get. Good luck! Salute! Wanted to add, Seeing that shooter discipline is one of your primary goals for her. The 223 is more than adequate for taking deer. You do your part in choosing the correct ammo, teaching her proper shot placement and responsible shooting ethics and she will have the same success that most good responsible hunters do. Remember, practicing good form perfects good form. Practicing bad form perfects bad form. You have to know "good form" to teach good form. Again, good luck! Edited by Sgt. D - June/11/2018 at 22:03 |
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Take care of Soldiers, Show em how its done and do it with em, Run to the Fight & and hold your ground! I die my men go home! If you're a NCO and this ain't you. GET OUT! GOD BLESS AMERICA!
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