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Upgrading Low-Light performance |
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Corn Doc
Optics GrassHopper Joined: January/16/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 14 |
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Posted: December/17/2018 at 12:55 |
I am considering upgrading a scope and would like some
advice regarding your suggestions to improve my low-light performance for deer hunting. My current deer rifle scopes are Zeiss Conquest 3x9x40 or
earlier Diavari-C 3x9x36 with standard plex reticle. I am strongly considering an illuminated reticle and would
like your feedback regarding its utility for such use. And what type of illumination
/ reticle do you favor for low-light hunting use? For instance, the Trijicon accupoint green
triangle with post, or a #4 or duplex reticle with battery powered illuminated
dot, such as the Leupold FireDot Illuminated Duplex. Most of the hunting use I would encounter is not long-range
(less than 300 yards), so I don’t expect the Christmas tree type / Mil-dot reticles,
or substantially higher magnificent are likely necessary or desired. Also, I don’t mind increasing objective size up to perhaps 50mm, if that factor that will enhance performance. However, I would generally like to keep the scope size and weight relative to standard taper rifle barrel. |
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supertool73
Optics God Superstool Joined: January/03/2008 Status: Offline Points: 11814 |
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Both of those you mentioned have great illumination systems. I own both systems and have used both in low light a lot and they have both performed excellent for me. A larger objective will mostly benefit you if you want to turn up the magnification a little more. You want to keep the exit pupil large in low light so your eye can use all the light available to help you see your target. Meopta is coming out with new reticles soon that will offer some pretty neat features in terms of seeing the reticle in different conditions. Check out their site. Optically Meopta scopes are top notch as well. Might want to check those out before you buy anything else.
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koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13181 |
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If you are after low light performance, bumping up the objective size a little is not a bad idea.
The Meopta recommendation is very sound as well. You did not mention what your budget is. ILya
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Corn Doc
Optics GrassHopper Joined: January/16/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 14 |
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Yes, I like the concept of the new dichroic reticle from Meopta. It will certainly be interesting to see what models they release it in and how it will be priced.
I am not in a particular hurry to make a purchase, but did want to get some valuable input, in order to make a well-informed decision, or be prepared if a deal presents itself. Regarding my budget, I would consider most anything, as I consider this will be essentially a life-time purchase. Realistically, though I think there are some pretty good options in the $1000 range, so that is where I've primarily focused thus far. |
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Urimaginaryfrnd
MODERATOR Resident Redneck Joined: June/20/2005 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 14964 |
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How bright the optic appears is related to quality of glass quality of lens coatings and objective size. For example a 6x42mm scope 42 divided by 6 =7mm exit eye pupil (bright as you can probably use) increase the objective size from 42mm to 50 mm and you gain essentially one higher power 7x7=49 so a 50mm objective max brightness at 7x and a 56mm objective max brightness at 8x. The larger the scope the more awkward the handling feels so sometimes the answer is to dial down the power in low light. We have guys running around with 5-20x50 scopes set on 20x wondering why the scope looks so grey in low light when reducing the power setting down to 5, 6, 7, 8 even 9 or 10 would make a huge difference. Zeiss glass is great glass, the new models lens coatings are better than the older ones. To max the brightness on your 3-9x36 remember that 6x will be 6mm exit eye pupil so it should get as bright as possible just below 6x. |
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Lockjaw
Optics Journeyman Joined: May/17/2016 Location: Chelsea Status: Offline Points: 434 |
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Larger objective helps. I have a nikon monarch 4-16x50 and its really very good in low light. I have a Monarch 3-9x40 UCC and its bright. I have a Zeiss Duralyt 2-8x42, its bright, I have a Minox ZX 3-15x50 that is also bright.
My latest is a Minox ZX5 1-5 with a 30mm main tube. Not sure what the objective is, maybe 24. I expect it to be bright as well. I haven't gotten comfortable with illumination yet. What I have discovered is the darker it gets, the closer you need to be to your target. An example. In my club, we have a shooting house on a powerline over a green field. Front of the field is 200 yards, back is 300. A deer in that field cannot be seen with the naked eye after about 4:45. You need an optic, and the darker it gets, the less magnification you can use to see it clearly. However, if the deer were 50 yards away, you could see it with a naked eye. I personally wouldn't shoot one at distance, with a grainy sight picture. I have no problem sitting on my stand late, but if you are in a shooting house, you can't see as well as if you were in a tree stand. If I can see a deer with my naked eye, and through the scope, even if I can't clearly see the crosshairs, I can still center the deer in the scope and shoot it. But its a crap shoot unless it has a really big rack, it could be a doe, or it could be a small buck that doesn't meet club standards. |
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Scrumbag
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: October/22/2013 Location: London, UK Status: Offline Points: 4205 |
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Quality glass, not too much zoom range and a large objective are what you need to aim for
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Was sure I had a point when I started this post...
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Rancid Coolaid
MODERATOR Joined: January/19/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9318 |
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And keep the whole conversation in perspective: the difference between okay performance and good performance is a few minutes at first or last light. The difference between okay and great is a few minutes more. It's not like the difference between a decent $400 hunter and a $3000 hunter is an hour of shooting time. Then again, the things we want to hunt are usually much more comfortable coming out in the last few minutes of usable light, so it is an ROI decision.
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tahqua
MODERATOR Have You Driven A Ford Lately? Joined: March/27/2006 Location: Michigan, USA Status: Offline Points: 9042 |
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Yes, but better glass really helps in low light if the animal is in or in front of cover. That can make the difference between a shot or no shot. Or worse, a wounded animal from a deflected bullet.
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Doug
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CrazyEddie
Optics GrassHopper Joined: December/27/2018 Location: GA Status: Offline Points: 43 |
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Thanks for asking this OP - this too is on my mind as I consider new scopes (in another thread). I have a 3-15x50 Tract Toric on a 30-06, but find that I'm usually keeping the magnification towards the low end, due to the distance I'm considering for shots, and the light. It made me also think about dialing down the top end magnification and keeping the same or larger objective.
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koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13181 |
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7mm exit pupil is a good rule of thumb, but is too simple of a guideline for most cases. You want the exit pupil to accomodate some eye dither, since your eye needs to be able to move a little to cut down on fatigue and see better. In practical terms, in the $1k range, if yuo are looking for a 50mm or greater objective, your best low light options are probably Meopta Meostar 3-10x50 and 3-12x56 as well as Swaro Z3 4-12x50. ILya
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Corn Doc
Optics GrassHopper Joined: January/16/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 14 |
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Thanks for all the responses thus far.
I have a Swaro Z3 6x18x50 on a varmint rifle I can take out to do some head to head comparison with my deer rigs to address the relative differences to my eyes in my terrain. I will reiterate that typical deer hunting low-light hunting situations I encounter are very modest range, where my scopes stay at 6x magnification or lower. Thus, achieving that 6-7 mm exit pupil goal shouldn't be too difficult, or hopefully limiting. We will see.... How about your thoughts on the utility of illuminated reticles? After a lot of hunting and traveling to the plains of Kansas during the holidays, I noticed a substantial difference in the ambient light 30 minutes after sunset compared to the pine belt and hardwood timber in the southeast U.S. where I reside. I expect that an illuminated reticle may help improve confidence in point of impact during the first/last 10 minutes of legal shooting time. What has been your experience? |
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Kickboxer
MODERATOR Moderator Joined: February/13/2008 Status: Offline Points: 23679 |
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I find scopes without illumination needlessly limiting. Sure, you could always be careless and let your battery run down. It really does not take much aforethought to NOT let that happen. Illumination can be an aid even in "normal" light, but if the illumination is well designed and executed it is NEVER a hindrance. In the first and last minutes of shot opportunity (dawn, dusk) it is always an aid... given good design and execution...
I've not encountered a "moderate" to "high" dollar scope with illumination flaws in quite some time. I tend away from "low" dollar scopes or non-illuminated scopes for anything I might use outside a range. It always pays to check the illumination on any scope you may purchase that has it. Generally, "illumination good"... "no illumination bad"... but that is just my personal opinion... I have no aversion to technology... some do.
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Scrumbag
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: October/22/2013 Location: London, UK Status: Offline Points: 4205 |
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Here in the UK we do a lot of our shooting at dawn and dusk. (1 hr either side of sunset is still legal)
A deer under the trees can look remarkably dark and therefore easy to loose even a relatively thick reticle. I often keep my scopes on the lowest setting possible so I don't get flare from the dot in very low light and the darker the background / target, the more prominent the dot appears (In bright light, the crosshairs work fine and doesn't matter if you can't see the dot). Scrummy
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Was sure I had a point when I started this post...
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coyote95
Optics Master Joined: January/24/2009 Location: michigan Status: Offline Points: 1196 |
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Illumination is a good thing, how ever you look at it !
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"Life is like riding a bicycle . To keep balance you must keep moving" Albert Einstein
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Peddler
Optics God Joined: July/04/2012 Location: Oswego,NY Status: Offline Points: 13526 |
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Yep!
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When you are dead, you don't know you are dead.It is difficult only for others.
It is the same when you are stupid. |
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Lockjaw
Optics Journeyman Joined: May/17/2016 Location: Chelsea Status: Offline Points: 434 |
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I personally do not think there is a scope out there that isn't thermal that will allow you to spot a deer at distance, or shoot it in low light reliably. UNLESS, you have a very light background the deer is on.
Even then, it could be a doe, or a spike. My club was a 6pt or better, so its a gamble the "darker" it gets on what you pull the trigger on. I have had deer run under my stand at near dark, and can't see them in the scope looking down in the pine thicket floor. Yet I can see the same deer on the green field. On some of our longer shot greenfields, you can't even see deer with a naked eye in them as dusk approaches, you have to have an optic. Even then, the darker it gets, the grainier the sight picture, and the less magnification you can use effectively. Now if the moon is out, then its different. I sit later than pretty much anyone in my club. But usually on short green fields or where I won't have a long shot.
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CrazyEddie
Optics GrassHopper Joined: December/27/2018 Location: GA Status: Offline Points: 43 |
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I'm currently trying to decide on illumination, and while some have said that there are not any downsides, at least one author (https://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/gun-shots/2012/04/illuminated-reticles-are-useless-big-game-hunting-optics) has pointed out a few. Some of the drawbacks don't bother me - as I can always turn off the illumination, but the two that got my attention are: (1) that some states do not permit illuminated reticles, and (2) the cost. Can anyone tell me which, if any, states have such a law? (Note, the article above was from 2013.) #2 does seem to be an issue, at least within the same manufacturer.
Which illuminated scopes are you all using? I've been looking at the Trijicon AccuPoint, which I've seeing online at around $925, which is in between the Tract Toric I'm considering ($724) and Swarovski ($1230), neither of which has illumination. Thanks in advance! Ed
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koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13181 |
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I can't tell you about the states that do not allow illuminated reticles, but I can tell you that I have yet to see anything optics-related published by Outdoor Life that is even marginally competent. Every once in a while they do get something right, but that is mostly along the same lines as a blind squirrel stumbling onto an acorn occasionally.
The cost of adding illumination to a typical hunting riflescope is pretty low and unless you are looking at sub-$200 scopes should not be a deciding factor. ILya
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Peddler
Optics God Joined: July/04/2012 Location: Oswego,NY Status: Offline Points: 13526 |
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I only have one illuminated right now. It’s a now discontinued Leica ERi 2.5-10x42 #4 reticle. Leica has replaced it with a new model. It’s easily my favorite now.
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When you are dead, you don't know you are dead.It is difficult only for others.
It is the same when you are stupid. |
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