OpticsTalk by SWFA, Inc. Homepage SWFA     SampleList.com
Forum Home Forum Home > Firearms, Bows, and Ammunition > Shooting
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - handloading vs commercial
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Visit the SWFA.com site to check out our current specials.

handloading vs commercial

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 5>
Author
Message
tejas View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman


Joined: March/08/2010
Location: Lone Star State
Status: Offline
Points: 575
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2019 at 16:47
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

Best read I've had on the subject:


Having recently reentered the hand loading "gang", after years of NOT, I still don't find it overly efficient timewise and the cost differential is almost a negative.  Factory ammo has improved tremendously and once one lays out all the cost factors involved for hand loading, it is a big question if it is worth it.  I am absolutely certain that I can purchase match grade ammo, for almost any caliber, that performs within 1% to 2% of anything I can load.  In a competition, is that ever going to be the deciding factor between "win or lose"?... Certainly if the meme of "difference between mils and MOA is "negligible"" is true, that 1-2% is not going to be much in the equation... there are way too many other factors involved that "contribute" much more.  

I can purchase Federal Premium Gold Medal Match .338 Lapua Magnum for $4.00/round (sometimes less, sometimes more but it averages out).  Given that I already have all the loading equipment (won't average that into the cost), I can load 100 rounds for $4.05/round (not including shipping cost, taxes and my time).  AND, there is no guarantee I can achieve the 1-2% gain in accuracy... probably, but not guaranteed.  (I DID recently load some Etronx .220 Swift with 55 grain Amax bullets that so far are performing a significant amount better than the factory Etronx ammo.  A big plus.)  Spending some time doing a thorough search on the internet, purchasing very carefully, I may be able to drop the hand loading cost by a few cents per round... still my time invested.  It is true that I have a lot more options open hand loading vs purchasing commercial... I can make adjustments not available commercially.  The investment to make those adjustments, however, is not insignificant.  

I do enjoy the rigor of loading my own ammo (as do a LARGE number of people).  Cost effectiveness really doesn't enter in, anymore.  

I have to caveat this, I suppose.  I KNOW I can load for the .338 Lapua Magnum at an approximate half that cost (or just purchase commercial for half that cost)... but I don't use "burner" ammo in my .338.  

I went through all this trying to justify to myself why I started loading again.  What it all boils down to is I just like doing it.  Now that I have all the "stuff", I'll continue... and explore ways to improve the processes while reducing cost and time.  I'm not unhappy that commercial practices have, overall, improved to the point that hand loading is not absolutely necessary.  I am happy that hand loading gives me a whole range of options not easily (or at all) available commercially.  Either way, it all comes at a price.


Haven’t posted anything a while, still read the threads though. I don’t “plink” either, with .338 or otherwise. If I’m not trying to hit a specific target, I’m trying to get a perfect shot at a biological. I reload because once I’ve established the most accurate reload data I can get for a given firearm, there is no way a factory load can compete. I’m surprised that the factory load your referring to is even close to your handloads. I don’t have a .338 LM either though. Frequently, factory stuff does achieve higher velocity than my loads because they have access to proprietary powder, but I don’t really care as long as mine is accurate and powerful enough to do what I want it to. That accuracy does come at a cost, in time and in cash. Lapua brass and Berger or Barnes bullets for example, are expensive. I also “match grade” every brass case. That includes trimming them all to the same length, uniforming the primer pockets and deburring the flash holes. I weigh every powder charge, but I use a Redding beam scale, not digital. I also measure the overall length of each round.The bottom line is, I don’t save much by reloading rifle ammo. If you count the time I spend, it’s not even close. I don’t neck turn and I don’t weigh brass or bullets. Pistol bullets is whole other ballgame. I only own .45 ACP and that’s all I reload. I do save money by reloading those and I don’t get carried away. I weigh every fifth powder charge. I don’t trim the brass or do anything except the minimum. Obviously, I have lots of free time.
Back to Top
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 23679
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2019 at 20:16
Good comments, tejas.  Thank you.  The point, I think, is that the variety of hand loading outweighs the convenience of commercial and certainly I can create loads that the commercial market just doesn't.  
 
I fully agree with your objective.

I've still got to get my bench set up and get everything off my dining table... as it is, I pretty much have to move and reset for every load session.  Doesn't help the learning/re-learning processes.

Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living
Back to Top
JGRaider View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master


Joined: February/06/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 1540
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JGRaider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/26/2019 at 09:28
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

Good comments, tejas.  Thank you.  The point, I think, is that the variety of hand loading outweighs the convenience of commercial and certainly I can create loads that the commercial market just doesn't.  
 

Quite obviously,  and much more accurately as well.   
Back to Top
tejas View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman


Joined: March/08/2010
Location: Lone Star State
Status: Offline
Points: 575
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/26/2019 at 09:30
One other thing: You might take a look at Peterson brass. I haven’t tried any yet but I’m going to. Most people think it’s as good or better than Lapua. It’s also less expensive and made in the U.S.
 Graf’s handles it.
Back to Top
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 23679
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/26/2019 at 10:01
Originally posted by tejas tejas wrote:

One other thing: You might take a look at Peterson brass. I haven’t tried any yet but I’m going to. Most people think it’s as good or better than Lapua. It’s also less expensive and made in the U.S.
 Graf’s handles it.
I appreciate the head's up.
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living
Back to Top
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 23679
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/26/2019 at 10:03
Originally posted by JGRaider JGRaider wrote:

Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

Good comments, tejas.  Thank you.  The point, I think, is that the variety of hand loading outweighs the convenience of commercial and certainly I can create loads that the commercial market just doesn't.  
 

Quite obviously,  and much more accurately as well.   

It will be an interesting exploration...
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living
Back to Top
8shots View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight
Avatar
Lord Of The Flies

Joined: March/14/2007
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 6253
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8shots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/27/2019 at 01:19
In South Africa reloading is a lot cheaper then buying. Most hunters load to save costs. Most target shooters load for both accuracy and cost saving.

Most of our benchrest shooters load by volume. They work out a load on each day and time of time. I personally have never tried loading by volume.

I have deliberately added or taken away a few granules from a batch of loads. That made no difference to my shooting on a target. So I guess a .05 grein more or less is mostly irrelevant in the bigger scheme of things.

I have not used factory loaded ammo in the past 25 years, so I have no comment on factory loads being accurate or not.  
Back to Top
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 23679
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/27/2019 at 06:55
Wouter, what would the price of a 20 round box of something like .300 Winchester Magnum Barnes VOR TX 180 grain TTSX be in your neck of the woods?  I can get it regularly for about $45.00 and on sale as low as $35.00.  I've not hand loaded any yet, so don't really have a feel for that cost.  I've just recently (actually in the last 2 weeks) acquired all the components for loading .300 Winchester Magnum.  I've had some custom loading done for my .300WMs... I KNOW I can beat that price.  
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living
Back to Top
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 23679
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/27/2019 at 07:12
Actually, just did a Q&D calculation and reusing factory brass, not amortizing equipment cost, cost of my time and not searching for best available deals, I can load .300WM for about $1.05/round, a little less than half the cost of factory.  Time has always been the biggest factor for me.
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living
Back to Top
8shots View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight
Avatar
Lord Of The Flies

Joined: March/14/2007
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 6253
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8shots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/27/2019 at 08:17
Just got off the phone with a gunshop. At R15 to the $ we are paying $86 for 20.

My calculations also comes out at about 50% of factory loaded price.

Back to Top
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 23679
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/27/2019 at 10:37
That is a pretty heavy hit.  Wow.
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living
Back to Top
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 23679
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/31/2019 at 18:11
I ordered the Peterson brass in .308, 50 cases to try out.  Arrived today.  Measured all cases... most measured at 2.006, all within + 0.003, -0.002.  
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living
Back to Top
Bigdaddy0381 View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Georgia peach

Joined: February/27/2007
Location: Georgia
Status: Offline
Points: 13682
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigdaddy0381 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/01/2019 at 05:56
Peterson's has good brass. I have won a few 100 at the matches.
P&Z Firearms , Pro gun cleanings and gun repair and wood refinishing.

Ecclesiastes 10:2
Back to Top
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 23679
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/01/2019 at 06:38
I weighed all 50 cases... all within +- 0.09 grains.  Certainly looking good so far.  
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living
Back to Top
Bigdaddy0381 View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Georgia peach

Joined: February/27/2007
Location: Georgia
Status: Offline
Points: 13682
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigdaddy0381 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/01/2019 at 06:49
Yeah, I would hate to have a heavy case. Might not shoot correctly 
P&Z Firearms , Pro gun cleanings and gun repair and wood refinishing.

Ecclesiastes 10:2
Back to Top
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 23679
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/01/2019 at 11:08
Originally posted by Bigdaddy0381 Bigdaddy0381 wrote:

Yeah, I would hate to have a heavy case. Might not shoot correctly 

 
I did not expect a big enough difference to make a difference.  A significant variance COULD indicate an inconsistency in case thickness... I was just checking... it's an ingrained quality from my T&E background.  

From an article I copied from somewhere a couple of years ago.  

7.62 NATO vs .308 Win – Case thickness

Measuring the thickness of cartridge cases is kind of a pain, especially since I tend to mash them all up when trying to cut them in half with my Dremel tool. So, I took the shortcut to illustrate the difference. From my big bucket of .308 / 7.62 brass, I selected some representative samples of both commercial .308 Winchester and 7.62x51mm NATO brass and weighed them. I picked several of each and averaged the weights. I didn’t measure the cases because they’ve been fired, so that won’t tell me much other than the general size of the chamber from which they went bang.

  • Hornady .308: 169.6 grains
  • Winchester .308: 163.3 grains
  • Lake City 7.62x51mm NATO: 183.5 grains

That’s a significant difference! Thicker walls combined with similar exterior dimensions means less powder capacity and a lower “top end” and all else the same, lower pressure and velocity.

The thicker brass of 7.62 cases is a significant factor

If it did not matter, why would virtually everyone recommend starting over at a beginning powder charge and working up again if/when case type is changed?  However, I don't believe a less than one grain difference will make a difference.

Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living
Back to Top
Bigdaddy0381 View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Georgia peach

Joined: February/27/2007
Location: Georgia
Status: Offline
Points: 13682
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigdaddy0381 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/01/2019 at 12:42
 So I'm guessing you will clean primer pockets too? Do you weigh each bullet? 

I just don't see it making much different to my shooting out to 1500 yards 
P&Z Firearms , Pro gun cleanings and gun repair and wood refinishing.

Ecclesiastes 10:2
Back to Top
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 23679
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/01/2019 at 13:31
I do clean primer pockets... always did.  IF I am competition shooting, I will weigh bullets.. I've weighed all the ones I've loaded recently... just to get some background.  For this brass, I was performing a Q&D check on QC.  50 cases is not "all telling", but does provide some indicators.  Eliminating as many sources of error as possible makes it easier to work on "me"...
Checking out the numbers...
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living
Back to Top
budperm View Drop Down
Optics Retard
Optics Retard
Avatar
show me your sheep!!

Joined: January/01/2009
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31710
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote budperm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/03/2019 at 12:24
So all this is a preface to telling us that you've changed your mind late in the game and have decided to forgo the lengthy process of reloading and just spend all the saved time on another pursuit... 
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson



Back to Top
budperm View Drop Down
Optics Retard
Optics Retard
Avatar
show me your sheep!!

Joined: January/01/2009
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31710
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote budperm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/03/2019 at 12:25
I mean it's not like you sleep or anything....

"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson



Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 5>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.227 seconds.