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Guts or glass? You decide...

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rootmanslim View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rootmanslim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 11:09
The Nikon Monarch deal (right now) is almost impossible to pass up,BUT here's another thought...
You can buy a minty used Leupold on Ebay for the same price as the Monarch. There will probably be nothing wrong with it (I"ve bought 7 over the past 5 years in all grades & Xs) BUT if there is Leupold will fix it in a week for free.
That's what I call CYA! Leupold even apoligized to me when I sent back my purple (older than most of y'all) M8 6X that I dropped and broke the crosshair (yes crosshair!). Why were they "sorry"? because they no longer made the fine straight wire and dot and would a tapered fine wire & dot be okay? Back in one week with a complete chart of the windage & elevation limits FOR FREE! it went back on my Sauer 375 H&H and has continued to digest numerous thumper loads on a 9 lb all up rig w/o a whimper. Some experts may be right that there are scopes that may be better for the money when you buy them BUT for the total picture you can't go wrong with a "loopie". (I won't even mention that it is nice to employ real Americans working for an American company rather than support the folks who put 100 of thousand of our fathers & grandfathers in the ground or some VA hospital hellhole)
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cheaptrick View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheaptrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 11:14

Originally posted by rootmanslim rootmanslim wrote:

(I won't even mention that it is nice to employ real Americans working for an American company rather than support the folks who put 100 of thousand of our fathers & grandfathers in the ground or some VA hospital hellhole)

 

I'm confused.

It's OK to buy "the deal" on the Jap scope, but not at list price because after all, we did fight them in WWII??

 

Isn't that somewhat hypocritical, slim?

Check......A LOT hypocritical, slim??

If at first you don't secede...try..try again.
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pyro6999 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 11:16
oh so now we have to buy a leupold just to keep people employed, tell everyone that bought a toyota of a honda that they have to drive inferior cars because you want people to keep a job, why should i be forced to by an inferior product just because its made here
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"
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rootmanslim View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rootmanslim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 11:42
'm sure the captains of industry in Japan and China fully agree with you. Sometime catch the History channel show on how the boys in Seattle who built the B-17s were secretly negotiating with Japan in 1941 YES 1941 to license production of the B-17 to Japan. Collaborators and the misguided have always existed and still do (see pelollozi, murtha et al.)

My only ASIDE (IT WAS AN ASIDE) was that given the alternative, one might consider history in the equation.
As Bob Dylan put it so well:"though they killed 6 million, in the ovens they fried, the Germans now too have God on their side."

To quote my favoite sage Tom Matussi: "all events in human history can be traced to either (or and) greed and stupidity"

You can buy whatever you want. God knows we are enabling the Mullahs plans to destroy us by buying their oil rather than just taking it. It is instructive to see how the Chinese handled the recent Muslim uprising in western china (they killed them all). Very distasteful but rather like how we USED to handle those who threatened America's existance or even what we wanted. (see native Americans, WW II for enlightenment)

Empires which forget to act like empires end up on the ash heap of history. (ask Tony Blair)
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cheaptrick View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheaptrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 11:48

Originally posted by rootmanslim rootmanslim wrote:

'm sure the captains of industry in Japan and China fully agree with you. Sometime catch the History channel show on how the boys in Seattle who built the B-17s were secretly negotiating with Japan in 1941 YES 1941 to license production of the B-17 to Japan. Collaborators and the misguided have always existed and still do (see pelollozi, murtha et al.)

My only ASIDE (IT WAS AN ASIDE) was that given the alternative, one might consider history in the equation.
As Bob Dylan put it so well:"though they killed 6 million, in the ovens they fried, the Germans now too have God on their side."

To quote my favoite sage Tom Matussi: "all events in human history can be traced to either (or and) greed and stupidity"

You can buy whatever you want. God knows we are enabling the Mullahs plans to destroy us by buying their oil rather than just taking it. It is instructive to see how the Chinese handled the recent Muslim uprising in western china (they killed them all). Very distasteful but rather like how we USED to handle those who threatened America's existance or even what we wanted. (see native Americans, WW II for enlightenment)

Empires which forget to act like empires end up on the ash heap of history. (ask Tony Blair)

 

Well yeah, there's all that and what not.

 

guitarman, good luck with whatever you decide on.

If at first you don't secede...try..try again.
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rootmanslim View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rootmanslim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 12:05
"Those who ignore the lessons of history do so at their own peril."
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Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 13:23

no scope lasts a life time, innovations and advances outdates consumer optics (especially electronics). Whether a monarch is better than a leo 11 certainly would depend on the specific powers. If you want Leo and 12x get their 12x FX- its better than either. The indents used to "click" stop elevation and windage in ether the Leo or the Nikon are on par with the price, comparing them to the ball bearing raceways of a USO or S$B is comparing apples and oranges. (are they worth 4-6 times the price?) Leos optimal transmission is at different wavelengths than Nikons. (apparently Leo is going to change this with the new vx7's if you follow their press ). what does all this do with the first post international economics and history-when you come to the fork in the road take it.

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guitarman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote guitarman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 14:30
Thanks for all of your input guys.  Cheaptrick, I respect your knowledge and experience very much, because I know that your experience far surpasses mine.  Personally, as a relatively poor undergraduate student, I would rather know that I will never have to buy another scope (at least for a very long while), regardless of what happens to it.  I love Nikons, don't get me wrong.  My Buckmaster was an outstanding scope.  There is just something about a Leupold that I can't quite put my finger on though.  They are light, short, rugged, their reticles are amazing, their matte finish is gorgeous and exceptionally durable, and their warranty is incredible.  All things considered, not JUST optical clarity, I think that Leupold offers the best balance in quality for the price.  Of course, I am neglecting the clearanced Nikon Monarchs.  However, I think I would buy a VX-II rather than the Monarch regardless of the sale.  I don't want to have to struggle with warranty fulfillment, and I love the fine duplex reticle !
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Roy Finn View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roy Finn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 14:52
Two the original poster, why settle for one or the other, "guts or glass"? Get a 4200 and have both. Done deal.
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guitarman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote guitarman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 14:56
Point well taken Roy.  I find the Bushnells slightly bulky, and overall, I just don't really care for them much.  Also, I have a difficult time finding a configuration I like in the 4200 series.  I have heard they're phenomenal though.  I've only looked through them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roy Finn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 15:01
They are phenomenal. However, if you want to talk yourself into the Leupold, which it appears you do, then by all means do so.
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guitarman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote guitarman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 15:14
One of the biggest selling points for me is the fine duplex reticle.
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Trinidad View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trinidad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 15:18
You were on the right track before this thread........
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guitarman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote guitarman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 15:31

Hmm...

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cheaptrick View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheaptrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 15:56

Originally posted by guitarman guitarman wrote:

Thanks for all of your input guys.  Cheaptrick, I respect your knowledge and experience very much, because I know that your experience far surpasses mine.

 

Maybe, maybe not. It's your investment of your money and time.

You should feel good about it.

 

Optic selections are VERY subjective.

And in Slim's case, geo-political. 

 

People recommend what they've used and/or what they had good experiences with.

I've had very good success with Nikon products, so that's what I recommend to people who ask.

(And some that don't.)  

 

Best of luck with whatever you go with.

If at first you don't secede...try..try again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 16:38
I could not help but add my 2 cents to this discussion.  Leupold obviouly makes a good scope.  I have never owned one because everbody around me preaches to me that is what I should get.  So I went the other way.  And to me, they are over priced, but still a very good scope.  If someone prefers Leupold, so be it.  Its like a choice in rifles.  I catch grief from root for liking Wbys., despite the fact I own multiple other brands and love them all.  Thats one reason I would like to see more objective testing of scopes.  So if guitarman and mwyates want to buy Leupolds, that is their perogative and if they believe they are better to their eye, I cannot argue with that.
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pyro6999 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 18:06
leupold does beat a tasco that's for sure
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"
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ceylonc View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ceylonc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2007 at 09:02

Originally posted by SVD666 SVD666 wrote:

You were on the right track before this thread........

 

+1; I couldn't agree more.  I just finished reading every reply from page 1 to 4 and I'd be lying if I didn't say I'm a little disappointed.  I'm not trying to be hard on you but I'm a little miffed at your reasoning.

 

With all due respect "guitarman", you came to "THE" rifle optics website.  There is not a more informed, experienced and (in my opinion) more helpful community anywhere to help shooters understand the ins & outs of scopes.  You asked a question on what to buy and then provided your intended uses, applications and price range.  Next, this body of experts pretty much unanimously recommended the Nikon Monarch.  This recommendation was substantiated NOT with emotional opinions but with FACTS especially when discussing the pros & cons of Nikon vs. Leupold.  Now, as best I can tell, you've basically come back to square one and determined that you'll probably buy the Leupold because you like the way it looks & feels better even though this body of experts has pretty much turned blue in the face explaining that the Monarch has better glass, better pricing, better performance and identical warranty and durability.  Now I'm wondering why you asked the question in the first place and why this thread has gone on for 4 pages???  Why not just go out & buy what you want (Leupold) instead of posting the question here and then totally disregard the advice provided?

 

I'm reading what I just typed out and I realize that it might come across as a little harsh.  If so, I apologize.  However, I'm going to leave it as it is written because you need to realize something.  In the end, nobody really cares what you buy.  However, people do get their feathers ruffled when they take the time to share their knowledge and provide advice only to have it thrown right back at them.  Reading this back & forth, wishy-washy, I won't just make a decision thread began to get nauseating...  This began to read more like a dozen teenage girls talking about what to wear to the prom than a rifle scope forum!

 

 



Edited by ceylonc
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guitarman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote guitarman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2007 at 09:31

Yes, ceylonc, and I must admit that I did find that post a little insulting.  I have long understood the merits of debate when searching for a product of the highest quality for the best price.  I have gone through similar processes when choosing new guitars, new amplifiers, new pedals and etc...  Also, this seems to be the only forum that consistently warns against the use of Leupolds, and I must admit that at first this made me slightly suspicious.

 

There is nothing wrong with a little debate, it is healthy as a practice in one's own philosophy, and it can help someone attain a product of the highest value.  The latter is something that I find necessary, because I am on a rather tight budget, as I'm sure many of you are.

 

Anyway, I think you just helped me decide to make better use of my time.  Peace.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ceylonc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2007 at 10:00
Originally posted by guitarman guitarman wrote:

Yes, ceylonc, and I must admit that I did find that post a little insulting.  I have long understood the merits of debate when searching for a product of the highest quality for the best price.  I have gone through similar processes when choosing new guitars, new amplifiers, new pedals and etc...  Also, this seems to be the only forum that consistently warns against the use of Leupolds, and I must admit that at first this made me slightly suspicious.

 

There is nothing wrong with a little debate, it is healthy as a practice in one's own philosophy, and it can help someone attain a product of the highest value.  The latter is something that I find necessary, because I am on a rather tight budget, as I'm sure many of you are.

 

Anyway, I think you just helped me decide to make better use of my time.  Peace.

 

Well, like I said, there is no intent to insult you or this debate.  I too understand and agree that there is a huge benefit in debating the pros & cons of a product before making a buying decision.  I myself have used this forum for help in making scope purchases and I did so for the same reasons as you: to obtain advice in determining the highest quality product that fit under my budget constraints.

 

I think you totally lost the spirit of my reply.  Then again, maybe it is my fault as I'm going on my third nightshift in a row.  I'm going on about 10 hours of combined sleep since Friday morning so forgive me if I come across as a little cranky.

 

You mentioned that you found this site suspicious because it "...consistantly warns against the use of Leupolds."  Why would you find that suspicious?  I'd say 95% of posts regarding Leupold products don't warn AGAINST their use, only that there are OTHER competiting scopes that feature better glass and reliable performance at a LOWER PRICE than Leupold.  I would think that this wouldn't make you suspicious but EXCITED because you're on a tight budget but want good, reliable quality.  The folks here are showing you the light and yet you seem to dismiss this relevation.  That is what is so confusing to me...

 

I'll hold out the olive branch and again express that I never intended to offend or make you feel that you and your discussions aren't welcome here.  Couldn't be further from the truth!  I hope that my posts have not run you off.  Just understand that the regulars here are very passionate about discussing the merits of rifle optics.  I feel comfortable saying that every one of us learns something new every time we log on.  I hope you'll decide to stay.

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