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Sako 85 vs. Weatherby Mark V |
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pyro6999
Optics Retard OT TITAN Joined: December/22/2006 Location: North Dakota Status: Offline Points: 22034 |
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the .257wby would be my caliber of choice if i had the money to go buy a new rifle today,the only issue i have with the caliber is i enjoy shooting and so one has to really be careful not to shoot the .257 while hot, but if you pay attention to the temp of the barrel its not an issue
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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead" 343 we will never forget God Bless Chris Ledoux "good ride cowboy" |
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pyro6999
Optics Retard OT TITAN Joined: December/22/2006 Location: North Dakota Status: Offline Points: 22034 |
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if my 300wsm wasnt so accurate i think i would get rid of it cause the recoil is somewhat obnoxious from the bench
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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead" 343 we will never forget God Bless Chris Ledoux "good ride cowboy" |
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timber
Optics Journeyman Joined: June/03/2007 Status: Offline Points: 354 |
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storm 2844 wrote:
timber if you go online and google "big game info" that site has a good recoil calculator.
Good info. I don't handload. How do I know what 'powder charge' to use for any given calculation?
pyro6999 wrote:
the .257wby would be my caliber of choice if i had the money to go buy a new rifle today,the only issue i have with the caliber is i enjoy shooting and so one has to really be careful not to shoot the .257 while hot, but if you pay attention to the temp of the barrel its not an issue
I don't understand technically what damage can occur if a barrel is shot hot. I've been told erosion of the throat. Does this mean that the metal is literally burned away to the point where a cartridge won't seat properly and therefore affects accuracy? Is this what is meant when the barrel is 'shot out'? Can someone explain this? Also, I've noticed faster copper build-up if a rifle is shot when hot. Is this another by-product of shooting with a hot barrel? |
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Dolphin
Optics Master Joined: October/05/2006 Location: North Carolina Status: Offline Points: 1795 |
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Without repeating a discussion of throat erosion, here is a link to one of my last opinions regarding the subject: http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7586&KW=th roat+erosion Read my first post on that page. Edited by Dolphin |
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timber
Optics Journeyman Joined: June/03/2007 Status: Offline Points: 354 |
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Okay, so throat erosion is not something to be concerned about for most hunting rifles because, in most cases, they're not shot enough. But just for arguments' sake is shooting a barrel while hot even something to be concerned about for the typical hunting rifle?
Say you're at the range and you're trying to get in a lot of practice (with a hunting rifle) in a short amount of time. So you fire away and the barrel starts getting hot, usually after only 6 or 7 rounds in something like a 30-06. If you keep shooting are you damaging the barrel? Or is the point that you are probably damaging the barrel some but it doesn't matter much because you may only shoot a box or two at a time and then only once or twice a year? The point being that even doing this you'll never even get close to a 1000 rounds in a lifetime.
I will say that I am aware of course that accuracy drops off with a hot barrel. And it seems to me that copper build-up occurs faster with a hot barrel. And further this is not something I make a practice of but I have experimented with this in the past. What I've found beyond the accuracy and copper issues stated above is that the next time I fired the rifle cold it appeared to be perfectly fine. Once the copper was removed accuracy seemed to be back to normal.
If anyone has information on where to find typical powder charges for various calibers I'd most appreciate it. I'd like to play around with some recoil calculations and need these figures.
timber |
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storm2844
Optics GrassHopper Joined: September/05/2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 49 |
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timber go on www.reloadersnest.com that site has alot of reloading info for all calapers including all the weatherbys. if you can go out and buy a good reloading manual even if you dont reload. lymans 48th edition is a good one. it seems to be the most accurate in its info and loads and it isnt biast to its own brands. it will also give you a good rundown on reloading, and interior and exterior ballistics.
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jay
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storm2844
Optics GrassHopper Joined: September/05/2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 49 |
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as for as shooting out a barrel yes you can shoot one out very quickly. the more and the slower the powder is the faster it will burn out a barrel a 308win using 44 - 45 g 4895 powder will last approx 5000 rounds a 257weatherby will last about 1000.using 66 to 70g h100 powder check out http://www.ranrrc.org/tech/BarrelLife.htm and yes watch out for barrel temp the hotter you get that barrel the faster it will burn out. throut errosion is coused by excessive heat in a way yes it is actually burning away. for a 257 weatherby shoot ony 3 shots then let it cool. i shoot 6 shots at a time with my 308win before letting it cool and only 3 with my 300 wsm.
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jay
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pyro6999
Optics Retard OT TITAN Joined: December/22/2006 Location: North Dakota Status: Offline Points: 22034 |
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if you keep shooting a gun after its hot you could wear it out way faster than if you only shot it 5 times a year, say you ran two boxes of shells through your rifle only stopping to reload, you would do more damage there with those 40 shots than you could do in 10 years of 10-20 shots a year.you really knock barrel life off fast when you just keep shooting and shooting.
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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead" 343 we will never forget God Bless Chris Ledoux "good ride cowboy" |
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timber
Optics Journeyman Joined: June/03/2007 Status: Offline Points: 354 |
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Thanks. I'll get a Lymans 48th edition. I presume I'll be able to look up a cartridge/caliber/bullet weight and then find appropriate suggested(?) powder charges. One of my gun shops I patronize has wanted to get me into hand-loading for years. I've resisted mostly because I've always thought it would be too time intensive but also because I didn't feel I could do it safely. Anyway, I'm pretty sure he'll have the manual and can help me find the information I need to make recoil calculations.
It's interesting but I've never thought about the slow versus fast powder charges. Logically the slower powder charges literally burn longer thus exposing the barrel to intensive heat for a longer period of time than a faster powder of the same weight? Also a smaller caliber should rise in temperature faster than a larger caliber, all other variables being equal, because the powder flame is exposed to less metal to absorb the heat?
I'd bet the average hunter never gives it a second thought. Most of my hunting buddies are not gun guys and really I only have a surface technical understanding of guns, a lot of it from experience and trial and error. And I've made more than my share of incorrect assumptions and conclusions and have occasionally fallen prey to false myths passed around by hunters.
How do you determine when a barrel is too hot? I've always gone by the old adage 'if you can't hold your hand on the barrel it's too hot'. With that rule I'm lucky if I can get 5 slow shots with my Sako 30-06, maybe 10 (very quick shots) with my heavy barrel TRR 223. I just wonder how precise this 'test' is for determining if a barrel is too hot and needs to be set aside to cool? I've also wondered if additional damage can be done to a barrel if you clean it hot. The idea is that you're putting a swab of solvent (ambient temperature) down a barrel that's very very hot - the inference being that it may be cooling the barrel too fast. Any merit to this? |
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pyro6999
Optics Retard OT TITAN Joined: December/22/2006 Location: North Dakota Status: Offline Points: 22034 |
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the newest hornady and lee manuals are also very good.
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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead" 343 we will never forget God Bless Chris Ledoux "good ride cowboy" |
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pyro6999
Optics Retard OT TITAN Joined: December/22/2006 Location: North Dakota Status: Offline Points: 22034 |
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i use the if its to hot to hold its to hot to shoot, another thing about slower powders is that it takes more of it to make speed which in theory makes the round more accurate, thats why a lot of guys load based on volume not weight. i dont use any means to cool my barrel other than time, sometimes cool weather helps but you dont want cold temps that could casue issues like pouring cold water on the barrel, i wouldnt say that size has much to do with it, barrel make up and pressure will though, take a round like the 22-250, not considered powerful but very fast, compare it to a 30-06 which isnt really considered fast but is somewhat powerful, both will heat in close proxmity if there barrels are comparable contours and thickness just because heat is a by product of squeezing the trigger, you would probably notice damage in both if you abused them by shooting a string of 40 in a row just because its small doesnt mean it wont heat.
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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead" 343 we will never forget God Bless Chris Ledoux "good ride cowboy" |
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timber
Optics Journeyman Joined: June/03/2007 Status: Offline Points: 354 |
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pyro6999. We posted about the same time. I just read yours. Basically what you're saying is the hotter the barrel gets the faster it will wear? And that goes up at a logarithmic rate, ie if the barrel is hot with 6 shots the 7th shot begins to damage the barrel and the 8th shot would be MUCH harder on the barrel than even #7? I hope I said that clearly.
This seems logical. And in my example of trying to do a fast practice session with a lot of shots you'd say that is a VERY bad idea, regardless if the rifle is 'only' a hunting rifle, let alone a target or competition piece? |
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timber
Optics Journeyman Joined: June/03/2007 Status: Offline Points: 354 |
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pyro6999: " you would probably notice damage in both if you abused them by shooting a string of 40 in a row just because its small doesnt mean it wont heat."
I might not have said this right. I was trying to say a smaller caliber would heat up FASTER (caps for emphasis only) than a larger caliber everything else being equal. My thinking was because there is less metal exposed to the flame and would therefore logically heat up faster. I know it's difficult to compare different calibers and keep everything else (bullet weight, powder charge, etc.) identical but am I thinking correctly about this? |
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pyro6999
Optics Retard OT TITAN Joined: December/22/2006 Location: North Dakota Status: Offline Points: 22034 |
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yeah i would say that once the barrel gets hot that more damage will be done with each successive shot but i dont know at what point you would say ok i have shot x amount of shots and with each shot after this i cant exponentialy raise the degree of damage the next shot will do, so in other words after so many shots the degree of damage wont increase cause you would have to like melt the barrel at some point to increase the damage after a given amount of time, i usually shot 3 shots wait a little a bit then shoot the last two shots and then i switch guns and give it a break for a bit. here is one thing to think about when you consider barrel life, the smaller the caliber and the bigger the case the more likely you will have a short barrel life, cause you can only force so much powder down the bore, take the .257 wby, its about as much powder as the .257 cal can handle, the .264 win mag is another example of this, most of you small diameter magnums like this can really eat a barrel fast if you dont be careful
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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead" 343 we will never forget God Bless Chris Ledoux "good ride cowboy" |
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pyro6999
Optics Retard OT TITAN Joined: December/22/2006 Location: North Dakota Status: Offline Points: 22034 |
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not really pressure and speed are factors to consider here and the 22-250 has both as does the 30-06, just in lower levels than the 22-250, but you are also looking at a lot more powder and a ton more bullet surface to create friction in the 30-06, so really they would be comparable to heat up at a close pace. |
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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead" 343 we will never forget God Bless Chris Ledoux "good ride cowboy" |
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timber
Optics Journeyman Joined: June/03/2007 Status: Offline Points: 354 |
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"take the .257 wby, its about as much powder as the .257 cal can handle, the .264 win mag is another example of this, most of you small diameter magnums like this can really eat a barrel fast if you dont be careful"
That really sums it up for me and makes the most since. Even though I don't have any of these small magnums right now, or any magnums for that matter, I'm going to pay more attention to barrel heat. Thanks. I also look forward to exploring recoil calculations. I've seen some tables of calibers all ready calculated for recoil energy, etc. but they'll have the weight of the gun at some x value which may or may not be what my particular case would be. So it will be very useful.
Maybe I should ask this elsewhere but I'd like to know if there is a concise definition of what makes a certain round a 'magnum'? Is it pressure? If so why have I read that some 'standard' rounds, like the 260rem, have very high pressure but are not classified as 'magnum'. It seems as if I remember the figure of 60,000 cu, whatever that means, as the figure equated with the 260 and that was comparatively very high.
Back to the 257 Weatherby. In your opinion, given a requirement for moderate felt recoil, would you say it might be a good possibility for the ultimate (or best) very long range medium game (whitetail, etc.) caliber in a production rifle? Or would you go a little larger for wind tolerance at longer ranges, say a 270WSM or 270WBY? |
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storm2844
Optics GrassHopper Joined: September/05/2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 49 |
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Timber,
Look into the 7mm magnums such as the 7mm Weatherby STW Ultramag as they have really high ballastics coefience. If you go back to the http://www.biggameinfo.com/index.aspx and play with the ballastics calculator you can enter bullet diamater, ballastic coefience, speed, wind drift, etc... and it will do all caculations for you on bullet drop, wind drift energy, etc... out to 1000 yards. Go on there and play with different calibers and speeds from realoding manuels and factory ammunitions ballastics to see which suits you the best. |
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jay
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storm2844
Optics GrassHopper Joined: September/05/2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 49 |
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Timber, What constitues a magnum is usually the speed of what your bullet travels or cartirdge that is bigger than a previous cartridge such as a 30/06 is a standard cartridge and a 300 is it's magnum. A 7mm/08 is a standard cartridge and 7mm magnum is it's magnum. A magnum usually has a powder charge of 65 grains or more and is able to launch bullet of decent weight for that calliber at speeds of over 3000 feet per seconds. Such as a 30/06 will shoot a 165 grain bullet at 2850 feet per second and a 300 magnum will launch it at 3100 feet per second. |
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jay
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pyro6999
Optics Retard OT TITAN Joined: December/22/2006 Location: North Dakota Status: Offline Points: 22034 |
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the whole premise behind magnums is to reach out further with more oomph, until the wsm wssm and rum and rsaums came out magnums had a belted case and a used a bit more powder and a magnum primer.
the .257 is the fastest, long distance whitetail round for the recoil conscience i can think off, you step up to a .270 and its going to be felt more and then more again when you go up to a 7mm mag. one more to think about it the .264win mag, the only reason i like it is because the 6.5 's (.264) have a huge sectional density rating on their bullets which means they will hit hard, and the .264 is a very good round for elk & bear sized game as well. |
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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead" 343 we will never forget God Bless Chris Ledoux "good ride cowboy" |
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8shots
Optics Jedi Knight Lord Of The Flies Joined: March/14/2007 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 6253 |
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This thread seems to have taken a slight detour. To cover two threads at once: Barrel heat can be quite a topic. During my infantry days, we used a Bren gun, which is a 7.62 Nato heavy barrel machine gun, used for those "cover me boys" situations. These guns liked to jam, and whilst the rifleman is unblocking the jam, the no2 rifleman has to continue providing cover fire, using his standard FN 7.62 Nato (308Win). I have personally fired such a rifle on full automatic (I recall the firing rate to be 650 rounds per min) untill the Bren can kick to life again. The rifle becomes so hot that you cannot hold it in your hand, even with the ventilated plastic forend. The rounds start to go off without one even holding the trigger down, the heat of the barrel is enough to set the rounds off. I have seen one barrel so hot that it drooped and glowed red in the dark. Despite this abuse, these rifle short perfectly well once cooled off. We shot targets out to 300m and shot top scores. I cannot talk about barrel wear and life, as I did not know these things even excisted. I know that the barrel was shiny and clean enough inside to pass any inspection. That said, my 300H&H had a worn throat that could not shoot. The inside throat area looked like the grand canyon and could not be cleaned properly. I personally do not like to heat a barrel up. When target shooting or load developing I count 1 min between each shot and use the back of my hand to feel for barrel heat built-up. I stop the moment it feels hot, that is I must be able to keep my hand on the barrel or I stop for a while. During hunting it is more like providing "cover fire". I only check for barrel heat after the buck is down!!!!!
On the original topic, I have a Sako L61R or long action for the Finnbear model. Whenever I pick up any other rifle it cannot compare with the smoothness of the Sako action. However, finding after-sales parts for the Sako is a BITCH. I am waiting on Timney Triggers since May 2007 for a trigger, no go. The same on scope mounts etc. |
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