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Sako 85 vs. Weatherby Mark V

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Dolphin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2007 at 13:00

Originally posted by storm2844 storm2844 wrote:

as for as shooting out a barrel yes you can shoot one out very quickly. the more and the slower the powder is the faster it will burn out a barrel a 308win using 44 - 45 g 4895 powder will last approx 5000 rounds a 257weatherby will last about 1000.using 66 to 70g h100 powder check out http://www.ranrrc.org/tech/BarrelLife.htm and yes watch out for barrel temp the hotter you get that barrel the faster it will burn out. throut errosion is coused by excessive heat in a way yes it is actually burning away. for a 257 weatherby shoot ony 3 shots then let it cool. i shoot 6 shots at a time with my 308win before letting it cool and only 3 with my 300 wsm.

The statements frequently made regarding shooting out Wby. barrels in 1000 shots are anectdotal and in my research regarding the topic began to surface years ago in order to increase the sales of other brands of rifles.  I have looked into this topic extensively, probably more so than any one or group of individuals and it just does not hold water.  Please read my first post on the following page, which gives a little more in depth summary on the subject:

   http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7586&KW=th roat+erosion

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote storm2844 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2007 at 15:19

Dolphin i didnt make this statement to pick on weatherby calabers but it is a fact that the more slow burning powder in a case for a given bore size will in fact burn out a barrel faster. hence most weatherby calabers.

this holds true for th 264 win mag the 7mm rem mags all the rem ultra mags 22-250 220 swift any cal with a small bore and large powder capacity is going to burn out a barrel faster. sh*t the 223 wssm is burning them out in 400 rounds.  the 7mm rem mag will get about 1500 - 2000 rounds as will the 7mm weatherby but as soon as you neck that same 7mm weatherby case down to 257 burning the same amount of powder(also slower powder) your barrel life is reduced. to maby 1000.  the statement is true and frequently made about the weatherby calabers becouse most weatherby cals. are overbore calabers. http://yarchive.net/gun/barrel/barrel_life.html check out that site http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reference/rifleinout.cfm and that one. and look at the chat on my previouse post its in your window above this post. we can get into looking at the lazzaroni cals. if you want they burn  barrels out faster than any other magnum. 4-500 rounds.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2007 at 16:49
Again, I have done the research and done so quite thoroughly.  A site or two does not make it true.  Having spent quite a bit on this topic I know what I what I am talking about.  It does not bother me because it involves Wby. and I love their calibers and rifles, because it involves any over bored caliber.  I spoke to two guys who had 5000 rounds out of their 300 Wby. magnums and still shooting 2 to 3 inch groups at 100 yards.  I would say that is burned out for bench shooting, but adequate for hunting.  My research and this topic took me through the internet, discussions with many shooters, e-mails to many writers of magazines, discussions with gunsmiths who I had been referred to (as they personal had alot of experience with Wby. rifles) and the list goes on.  The other thing I would like to say, is that does something magical happen at the 1000 round mark.  Kind of like a pill going out of date.  Also, as far as Lazzeroni is concerned, while inflation of all ballistics are concerned by manufactures, Lazzeroni is king.  Their testing is done at 3000 feet of altitude and despite what is posted on their website, there is a question of whether they use a 28 inch barrel.  Personally, I do not give them credit for their velocities as being the fastest, but being close to some of the fastest and the fact that they should be given credit for starting the short fat magnum craze as opposed to the big manufactures.  The other thing, if your barrel wears out at 1000 yards, replace it.  It really is not that costly, compared to the price of a brand new Mark V or other rifles and you can get a match grade barrel, especially when people are paying 1000 dollars plus for rifle scopes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote storm2844 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2007 at 19:38

ok if you talking about 2-3 inch groups you can shoot a magnum pretty much till its throat is as long as its barrel and if these people are proud of there 2-3 inch groups then well good for them. and since i burn out a barrel in 308 win a year and one in 300 win mag a year .308 in sil comp and 300 at 900 yard targets. ya i have know idea what i am talking about. but then again i like to keep all my shots in a group of at least .75 of an inch at 100. and for hunting a hunting rifle should group at least 1.5 at 100y unless you are always shooting deer or what ever at exactly 100 with no wind or other variables. think about it if you shooting a deer with your 300 weatherby at 250 yards in a 20 mile per hour cross wind and frontal shot at deer velocity is 3200 fps 180g bullet .475 bc,(nos partition) wind drift alone is 7.4 inches at 250 yards. now wich way is that bullit going to go. to the left? to the right? by the time it hits that deer your shooting at it may be 10 inches to the left or to the right so this is acceptable mmmm ok. the point is to be as a responsable hunter should be removing as many variables out of the equation as possible. 

so instead of calling a barrel burnt out lets call it "the barrel has retired its repeatible accuracy but it still ok for huntin". 

weather lazz shoots its ammo from 3000 feet or 10 feet the difference is only 80 fps

and there velocities are from a 27 inch barrels for there long actions and 24 inch barrels for there short actions.

and yes 1000 is the magic number. no no its actually 1001 or maby its 999 i cant remember.

magazine writers. they only write what the sponcering company wants the people to hear. there like used car salesmen.

and oh ya i am a big fan of weatherby. this hole forum topic is exactly what i went though about 3 weeks ago when i was looking for a new hunting rifle. (i chose the sako 300wsm).

but weatherby would have been my next choice. i really like the 30-378. barrel burner though haha

but that will be my next years hunting rifle.

 

jay
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2007 at 20:40
30-378 thats a hefty hay burner of a horse to feed powder to, you wont even get a 100 rounds out of a pound powder feeding that mule! but will they lay a bullet way out there and way flat!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote storm2844 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2007 at 21:25

hehe ya at 115g of h870 you get only 60 rounds you can get a 190 grain sierra hpbt matchking going at 3300 fps

so with its bc at .533 one min and ill punch that info in, with a 300 zero that puts you 2.5 inches high at 100 yards at 500 yards you will only drop 20.7 inches at 1000 yards your drop is only 187.4 inches. if you used it for hunting using a 180g accubond for say with a bc of .507 at  500 yards your bullet is still going 2476 fps and still carrying 2450 ft/lbs of energy

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote timber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2007 at 23:03

Dolphin says: "The other thing, if your barrel wears out at 1000 yards, replace it.  It really is not that costly, compared to the price of a brand new Mark V or other rifles and you can get a match grade barrel, especially when people are paying 1000 dollars plus for rifle scopes."

 

I really like this thinking.  Don't deliberately mistreat the barrel/rifle but when it wears out, just replace it.  Like a tool.  Probably end up with a better than factory barrel and maybe even better accuracy/precision.
 

storm2844 say: " the point is to be as a responsable hunter should be removing as many variables out of the equation as possible. 

so instead of calling a barrel burnt out lets call it "the barrel has retired its repeatible accuracy but it still ok for huntin". "

 

I think everybody can agree with this.  If it's not accurate enough to hunt humanely then it's time to replace the barrel.

 

I appreciate all the discussion and have learned from all.  I gotta say I've been more of a hunting guy than a gun guy but this new Sako 85 with it's challenges has pushed me and it's been enjoyable.

 

I'd still like to know if there is a universally accepted definition of what a magnum round really is: muzzle velocity, pressure, whatever.  I've research some and can't find the answer.  Thanks,

 

timber

 

timber

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote timber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2007 at 23:16

storm2844 says:  "the 7mm rem mag will get about 1500 - 2000 rounds as will the 7mm weatherby but as soon as you neck that same 7mm weatherby case down to 257 burning the same amount of powder(also slower powder) your barrel life is reduced."

 

Let me see if I can summarize what you're saying.  Take a magnum caliber that will shoot X amount of rounds.  If you take that same casing and 'neck' it down to a smaller round (same powder capacity but smaller caliber - diameter - bullet) the resultant round being fired in a smaller caliber barrel will wear FASTER (caps for emphasis only) than the original magnum round.  That's why, all other varibles being equal, a 264win mag barrel will wear out faster than a 7mm rem mag which will wear out faster than a 338 win mag because all are based on the 458 win mag, which should last the longest.  Am I thinking right?

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote storm2844 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2007 at 00:18

ya timber you are thinking correctly if you take 4 cartrages you mentioned above they all use the same amount of powder although the

458 win mag will use a faster burning powder such as 'alliant re7' which  is a fast burning powder (the fastest of alliant 're' series of rifle powders)the

338 win mag uses allient 're19' which is much slower than 're7'

7mm remington mag works well with 're22' which in turn is slower burning than 're19' and the

264 win mag works well with 're25' which is alliants slowest powder.

 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote storm2844 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2007 at 00:21

timber

 

did you make a decision on what kind of rifle and calaber you are going to puchase?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote storm2844 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2007 at 00:48

magnums are not called magnums due to the pressure most rifle rounds weather it be 308 win 30/06 300 win mag 223 rem all run pressures in the 62000 to 65000 psi range magnums are generally related to the amount of powder that they use generally 65 grains or more powder. this is kinda were the magnum primers come into effect generally you should use a magnum primer in a case that has a powder capacity of 65 grains or more.

for example...

308 win is a standard short action cartrage it uses around 43-48g of powder

30/06 springfield. is a standard long action cartrage that uses 53-61 grains of powder

300 win mag is a long action magnum using 67 to 78g of powder

velocity is not a good indication of a magnum either take the

338 win mag its velocity is only 2700 -2900 fps but it uses 67 - 77g of powder

 

Timber rifle shooting, target shooting, reloading ,is a very fullfilling hobby. get into relaoding if you can.if your looking for a new hobbie

when you start looking into interiour and exteriour ballistics and finding out what your rifle can do at 100-1000 yards

and how it reacts to different primers powders and bullets. it gets pretty interesting. there are alot of programs out there that can help you along with handloading, ballistic tables which can give you wind drift bullet drop etc...

there is alot more out there to rifle shooting than most people think.

good luck 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2007 at 08:20
Originally posted by storm2844 storm2844 wrote:

ok if you talking about 2-3 inch groups you can shoot a magnum pretty much till its throat is as long as its barrel and if these people are proud of there 2-3 inch groups then well good for them. and since i burn out a barrel in 308 win a year and one in 300 win mag a year .308 in sil comp and 300 at 900 yard targets. ya i have know idea what i am talking about. but then again i like to keep all my shots in a group of at least .75 of an inch at 100. and for hunting a hunting rifle should group at least 1.5 at 100y unless you are always shooting deer or what ever at exactly 100 with no wind or other variables. think about it if you shooting a deer with your 300 weatherby at 250 yards in a 20 mile per hour cross wind and frontal shot at deer velocity is 3200 fps 180g bullet .475 bc,(nos partition) wind drift alone is 7.4 inches at 250 yards. now wich way is that bullit going to go. to the left? to the right? by the time it hits that deer your shooting at it may be 10 inches to the left or to the right so this is acceptable mmmm ok. the point is to be as a responsable hunter should be removing as many variables out of the equation as possible. 

so instead of calling a barrel burnt out lets call it "the barrel has retired its repeatible accuracy but it still ok for huntin". 

weather lazz shoots its ammo from 3000 feet or 10 feet the difference is only 80 fps

and there velocities are from a 27 inch barrels for there long actions and 24 inch barrels for there short actions.

and yes 1000 is the magic number. no no its actually 1001 or maby its 999 i cant remember.

magazine writers. they only write what the sponcering company wants the people to hear. there like used car salesmen.

and oh ya i am a big fan of weatherby. this hole forum topic is exactly what i went though about 3 weeks ago when i was looking for a new hunting rifle. (i chose the sako 300wsm).

but weatherby would have been my next choice. i really like the 30-378. barrel burner though haha

but that will be my next years hunting rifle.

 

Now lets get things into perspective.  The 2 to 3 inch groups, that some rifles out of the box and that some shooters cannot obtain, were obtained with 5000 rounds through a 300 Wby. magnum.  Point is that while some would callled the barrel burned out, you are right it has been used to the point accuracy has suffered.  Now as far as it not being able to used while hunting.  Here in NC where we do sniping most of the time for deer in fair weather at less than 300 yards, it would still be usable, but that was not the point.

 

Second, how do you burn out a .308 barrel a year unless you you doing competition shooting?

 

Third, you are completly wrong about alot of magazine writers.  There are two camps.  The old and the new.  Writers like Craig Boddington and Layne Simpson have been around a long time, with the former having been friends with Roy Weatherby.  These guys know more about the rifles than you and I combined and I do not necessarily mean the technical data, but the rifles, how they shoot, what to shoot, the bullets, what caliber to use, places to hunt, trophies taken and experiences etc.  So, do not summarily discount writers as being on the take, besides they have nothing to gain by giving me information and the names of other people to talk to.

 

Fourth, you are obviously very smart and know your ballistics.  I have been running ballistic tables for years, Exbal and Ballistics Explorer are two of my favorite and have one on my PC phone for use at the range and one on a slim line PC for the same purpose.  Most guys here like pyro6999 know this information, so while impressive as it is to spout it out, please do so when in response to a specific issue.  I am well aware of how altitude affects ballistics and actually, it is more than just the altitude but also the partial pressure of H20 that affects the said ballistics.  Regardless 80 to 125 fps can make a big difference to the guy looking through the Shooters Bible trying to make a decision on which caliber to buy, when he wants the fastest in a certain size.  That was my point there.  In addition, I am fully aware regarding the ballistics of the 30-378 Wby. as I own an Accumark in that caliber used and sighted in for long distance deer hunting.  Here in NC, we have to shoot from 8 feet above the ground, at least in the county I live in and most of the surrounding counties.  It can get pretty boring shooting/sniping deer at up to 300 yards.  Yes I am responsible and this has been discussed in other posts, so no further discussion is necessary.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote storm2844 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2007 at 11:37

OK i was quoting the 30-378"s ballistics for pyro as he ask "if it was flat shooting"

 

i do burn out a .308 barrel a year and a 300 win mag barrel a year. i belong to 2 shooting clubs and yes i do shoot in compititions i use my .308win for slhouette and pricision marksmen. and my .300wm for long range 900m target compitition. i usually put around 4000-6000 rounds through my .308 and 2000-2500 in my .300wm a year my .300 is getting a new barrel right now (lilja 3 groove 11 twist) both rifles are remington 700p"s hs stocks. bedded and actions trued.

 

i also work part time in a gun store were i do talk to many people and many gunsmiths. i am also starting to get into gunsmithing as one of the gunsmiths in the shop is teaching me.(i need something to do besides being an industreal electrician). 

 

so here we have a couple of people with lots of experence. haha with some different opinions. but isnt deferences in opinions what makes us all individuals.

 

thanks for the conversations on this forum i found it very interesting. i posted some pics of some of my rifles and a target handguns etc. check em out if you get a chanch



Edited by storm2844
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2007 at 11:57
Originally posted by storm2844 storm2844 wrote:

OK i was quoting the 30-378"s ballistics for pyro as he ask "if it was flat shooting"

 

i do burn out a .308 barrel a year and a 300 win mag barrel a year. i belong to 2 shooting clubs and yes i do shoot in compititions i use my .308win for slhouette and pricision marksmen. and my .300wm for long range 900m target compitition. i usually put around 4000-6000 rounds through my .308 and 2000-2500 in my .300wm a year my .300 is getting a new barrel right now (lilja 3 groove 11 twist) both rifles are remington 700p"s hs stocks. bedded and actions trued.

 

i also work part time in a gun store were i do talk to many people and many gunsmiths. i am also starting to get into gunsmithing as one of the gunsmiths in the shop is teaching me.(i need something to do besides being an industreal electrician). 

 

so here we have a couple of people with lots of experence. haha with some different opinions. but isnt deferences in opinions what makes us all individuals.

 

thanks for the conversations on this forum i found it very interesting. i posted some pics of some of my rifles and a target handguns etc. check em out if you get a chanch

Sorry about coming on a little strong, I just put alot of time into that little research project and found that there are so many variables that go into play regarding barrel life, I get a little defensive.  Sorry.  It is good to have you on the OT.  Sound like you know what you are talking about and will make a great addition.  Over the last 2 years, I have made a gradual transition to amateur gunsmithing and am working on another custom rifle in a .243 Winchester.  Almost finished.  I do not own a lathe, but would love to get one.  Toyed with the idea of one of those mini-lathes, but from what I have read, they run out of room just when you need it.  Besides, any barrel work, except removing metal can be done by hand with a reamer, even to increase headspace, recrowning, etc.  Looking forward to your pics.  I plan to post mine, when I am finished.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote timber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/20/2007 at 00:35

Good postings.  I'm really enjoying the conversation and learning stuff too.

 

For a moderate recoiling magnum deer round I'm looking at the 264 Win Mag, 257 and 270 Wbys, and the 7mm Rem Mag.  Maybe the 7mm Rem Mag in the big Weatherby action so I can try out a 9-lug.  Just not many MkV models to choose from in this caliber but a lot more ammo available.

 

My original posting was about the comparison between the Sako 85 and Weatherby Mark V.  I've tried to make a list of their various features for comparison:

 

Sako 85: Cast receiver, dovetail scope mounting, safety with bolt lock (bolt release with safety on), 2-4# user adjustable trigger, detachable magazine, 70 degree bolt lift, various stocks

 

Weatherby MkV: machined receiver, standard scope base attachment (screws), safety with bolt lock (no bolt release with safety on), 3# mininum (factory recommendation)- factory set at approximately 4 pounds, hinged magazine, 54 degree bolt lift, various stocks

 

A few of my personal opinions, many of which I've already mentioned: Sako's safety seems like a better design, especially the bolt release feature.  Trigger can also be adjusted lower - no creep in my examples.  Really dislike the scope dovetail mounting, magazine takes getting used to, bolt seems a little harder to lift/cock (after firing) than one would expect but the action is smooth, buttstock is too thin/small for larger rounds - a lot of people may differ with me on the stock issue.

 

On the Weatherby:  Generally feels heavier duty than the Sako.  Bolt travel very smooth.  Seems easier to lift/cock (after firing) than the Sako, especially considering an even shorter bolt lift.  Great proven hinged magazine.  Standard scope mounting is good.  Safety on the 6-lug a little hard to operate and a little finicky (my rifles), no bolt release with safety on.  Trigger can't be adjusted as low as Sako, has a small amount of creep (my rifles).  Monte Carlo stock handles heavy recoil well but it's a love or hate design.  Can't really comment on whether some of these observations do/do not apply to the 9-lug magnum action - never owned one.

 

Please make additions and corrections.

 

timber

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/21/2007 at 20:09
to be real honest i am thinking about either a .257 wby or a .264 win mag myself.
They call me "Boots"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roy Finn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/22/2007 at 15:32

OK timber, here's one more to ponder if your looking for a really nice wood stocked rifle, the COOPER 52................Here is a pic of my shabby 22lr they threw together.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/22/2007 at 19:18

Damn, I never get tired of looking at that beauty, Roy!  An absolutely SUPERB rifle, buddy!

 

Roy is right.  For what you pay for the Sako 85 and Wby MK V, you're in the general ballpark of a Cooper, and I guarantee you the average Cooper will outshoot both the average Sako and Weatherby by a considerable margin and will usually have nicer wood as well.  Cooper also has a more stringent accuracy guarantee.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/22/2007 at 20:05
the problem with the cooper 52 is the fact that they only show chamberings in 4 calibers 25-06 270.280 and 30-06 no mention of magnum calibers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roy Finn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/22/2007 at 20:48
Hey, I'm just trying to save the guy from disappointment. He, timber that is, stated earlier on in this thread that he was sensitive to recoil so I was not sure he had a specific caliber in mind. My point is when you consider the cost of a new Weatherby Mk5 the Cooper is right there cost wise, and miles apart from the Weatherby in terms of a true semi-custom rifle. Of course, if you like the style and shine of the Weatherby then that would be the route to go. Me, I like the classic look of the Cooper. I don't know what kind of resale value the Weatherby's have, but, I do know that the Cooper is very good and they are not a dime a dozen. I don't know if this is a fact, but there seems to be a trend in hunters going back to more sensible camberings for big game hunting these days.
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