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Graysteel
Optics Apprentice Joined: October/02/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 200 |
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Posted: October/16/2007 at 13:36 |
I figure it is time to start the Holy wars! My question is what do folks think is the highest useful power on a scope? Yes, I know that target folks often use very high power scopes and some tactical folks (Ok, I mean me) often say moderate is better, but my thought is this: I have often said that my limit of accuracy is around 1/4 MOA as a shooter. From a resolving detail standpoint people are typically said to be able to resolve in the neighborhood of about 0.5 MOA unaided. So I need at least 2x for it even to be possible to see well enough to shoot my best. Being more practical, I would guess on needs about 3-5 times minimum resolution to be able to get good kinesthetic feedback. That puts us in the 6-10 power range. Erring on the high side (10) and granting that bench rest shooters with mechanical rests may be able to hold 1/8 MOA and therefore may get some useful benefit out of 20 to 24 power. But, I still wonder if there is any value in the 36X scopes. Thoughts? My guess is that perhaps it is helpful for those with issues with eyesight or moderate quality glass, but I was wondering about other perspectives... Edited by Graysteel |
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cheaptrick
MODERATOR Joined: September/27/2004 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 20844 |
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Tagged.....
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Roy Finn
MODERATOR Steiner Junkie Joined: April/05/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4856 |
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You don't always need high magnification to shoot little groups. This was from a custom Husqvarna 06 with a Leupold 2.5-8x36 scope. 5 shots/100 yrds.
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cheaptrick
MODERATOR Joined: September/27/2004 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 20844 |
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Excellent shooting, Roy! |
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Roy Finn
MODERATOR Steiner Junkie Joined: April/05/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4856 |
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Thank you sir.........
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Graysteel
Optics Apprentice Joined: October/02/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 200 |
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Someone has to disagree or have another opinion. :) Edited by Graysteel |
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Roy Finn
MODERATOR Steiner Junkie Joined: April/05/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4856 |
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So ya think I should hold off sending it back to Hart for a re-rebarrel.???
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Dale Clifford
Optics Jedi Knight Joined: July/04/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5087 |
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My guess is that there are probably uncountable magazines articles dedicated to showing small groups attributed to lower ranges of power etc. however the variable you and the magazine have set is one of group size, not a combination of shooting factors. if DVC power, speed, and accuracy become the variables, (to say nothing of long range off hand silhoutte) the desirable power range takes a much larger jump. under time pressure the need to get any part of the reticle on the target favors magnifications in the higher range and is ironic that such events are usually not precision shooting, which is the area usually attributed to higher mag. optics. perhaps an approach such as what is the highest power I can still get on target in the fastest amount of time would be a more directed. Edited by Dale Clifford |
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RONK
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: April/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3199 |
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Well yeah, at least until you figger out where the other 4 shots went! |
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helo18
Optics Jedi Knight Joined: December/02/2006 Location: Montana Status: Offline Points: 5620 |
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Very interesting debate, but the problem is what you are using the scope for. As stated, those that target shoot off a rest benefit from the higher magnification scopes. I doubt out in the field for normal big game hunting anything over about 12x is going to do much good. In the woods, I wouldn't go over 3 or 4x. In heavy brush I really like using open sights. If you say that the effective range for a hunter is normally about 300 yards, then you shouldn't really need anything over 6x, although the extra is nice to have. As already shown, you can shoot a great group at 100 yds with low power scopes. So why would you need a 24 or 36x scope for normal hunting, unless you want to hit the tick crawling through the vital area. So IMHO, 9-12x is tops for big game.
Now, if you go to varmit hunting, then it could be benefitial to go up to 16-24x depending on the range. I enjoy shooting at 1000yds with my 300 wm, and I have a 16x on there. I don't think anything above that is necessary, and you can't hold it still with out a rest or bipod anyway.
So it comes down really to what you are going to use it for. But I think a good all around scope for close to far shooting is a 3-12x or 4-16x. Or something in that range. |
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To be prepared for War is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace.
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RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
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I would definitely forego the rebarrel idea there, Roy. Just from the shape of the group, specifically that dreaded 4:00 flier, I can readily see the classic telltale sign of a cracked right locking lug! Therefore, rather than spending another dime on that rifle, thereby further risking your safety, I highly suggest you box up that ticking time bomb and ship it to me instead!
...Great shooting, bud! Edited by RifleDude |
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Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
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RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
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WHOA! Wait a minute there, Roy... I just noticed that you said that rifle wears a LEUPOLD 2.5-8X36 scope... but that can't be, as everyone here knows that you HATE Leupys, right?
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Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
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RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
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Good topic, Graysteel!
As you and helo18 allude to, the highest useful magnification all depends on the shooting application and the rifle and shooter's grouping ability. For a benchrest rifle and a shooter capable of 1/8 MOA, you almost can't have too much magnification and you want a fixed power scope anyway.
For a varmint rifle, you don't need as much magnification as a target rifle, but depending on the type of varminting, you could use magnification around 24X under certain circumstances. For the type of varmint shooting I do (PDs), even for the longest shots, I've found that magnification much beyond about 15X is unnecessary because mirage becomes such a problem during most of the day that you can't resolve extreme detail well enough to use really high magnification anyway.
For a big game rifle, I believe more important than the consideration of where to draw the line on upper end magnification is making sure you don't have too much magnification on the low end (assuming a variable scope). I personally think one should never go above 4X on the low end for close quarters shots or shots at moving game in order to have decent FOV. That generally means 12X, 14X, or 16X on the upper end, but I personally think 16X is way too much magnification to be truly useful for most big game hunting. To my way of thinking, I want no more than 3X on the low end and no more than 12X on the upper end. My favorite scopes are 1.5-6X and 2-7X variables, and although I prefer the low powered variables for their compactness, I believe the best all around "hunt anywhere" magnification range is 2.5-10X. That config has plenty of FOV on the low end and all the magnification you'll ever need for all but the most extreme shots on the high end. |
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Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
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Roy Finn
MODERATOR Steiner Junkie Joined: April/05/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4856 |
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I'll have to check that locking lug issue. That rifle used to wear the suspect Leupy and now wears a B&L 4000 2.5-10x40. I figured it was a bad scope that accounted for the erratic grouping. I don't hate Leupold scopes, I just think that their pricing is a little out of wack.
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RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
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Really nice rifle, Roy! Are those Buehler rings?
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Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
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Roy Finn
MODERATOR Steiner Junkie Joined: April/05/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4856 |
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Yep, not alot of options for those Husqvarna's.
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Graysteel
Optics Apprentice Joined: October/02/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 200 |
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It seems that most folks seem to agree the max useful is somewhere around 20X. There have to be a few benchrest folks out there that feel that 20-24 X is just way too low? |
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Dale Clifford
Optics Jedi Knight Joined: July/04/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5087 |
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I don't know ----- is bench rest really shooting ?????
NF 8x32
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hot30
Optics Journeyman Joined: December/27/2006 Status: Offline Points: 378 |
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Nice one Dale. Jammed on 32x, your target is a bullet hole, yes??? At 7 or 800yards that is.? Fine example of what scope power cuold be used for. |
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30
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cletus85
Optics GrassHopper Joined: December/29/2006 Status: Offline Points: 42 |
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I used to think a 3-9x40 was fine for about everything...now that I am a much more picky hunter and shooter, I like a little more power under certain circumstances. If I'm shooting my .204 from the bench for groups I like 18x. For open country deer hunting, I can justify up to a 14x max, but usually comprimise with a 3-10x or something like that. As has already been said, when hunting, target acquision is an important factor to consider too.
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