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New cartridge designs, belted vs. non-belted

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pyro6999 View Drop Down
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    Posted: January/12/2008 at 15:15
yeah something like that i like the 160gr at 5500fps better though, the barrel would have to be made of something special wouldnt it! other wise 2 shells and whoops shes burnt out
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Urimaginaryfrnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/12/2008 at 13:53
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

i like mine a 50bmg necked down to 6.5 mm
6.5x50bfg
 
6.5x50bfg    not BMG for British Machine Gun but BFG for BIG  F------ Gun
 
Now that's what I call a cartridge - is the barrel Scandium? I can see it now130 gr slug at  6000fps.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Focus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2008 at 12:20
Dale.....what first thing?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2008 at 10:52

jeez I forgot--

memory is the second thing to go you know........
 
is it the memory of the first thing??????
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2008 at 09:49
its coming around the problem is that with exception to the 7mm mag metric calibers havent done well in the usa, course on the other side of the pond the 6.5mms run rampant. its slowly catching on and people are starting to see the benefits of the 6.5mms light recoil and good terminal performance. i love em, the .260 would be a great choice for my next rifle. easy to handload for and very user friendly for kids and women as well, and since i really like the rem cdl
 
focus are you kidding me the .280 is as much 30-06 case as the rest of the offspring in that family shoulder is just setback different so it wont chamber up in a 30-06 and so a 270 wont chamber in either.


Edited by pyro6999 - January/11/2008 at 10:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Focus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2008 at 09:48
True Ted, the 260 is loosing chamberings not gaining them, it will always struggle in the 7mm-08's shadow.

Come on Pyro, I got a couple of them 284 stretchers here, you bolt the brass in and hook it to any suitable SUV. Some you gotta trim if the SUV gets a good bite....:>)

I like the 6.5's but not many share that love in the shooting world.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2008 at 09:44
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Off topic here, but I'm not so sure that the .260 would have been introduced as a standard factory chambering had it not been for somebody championing the cause.  Although a group of hardcore gun nuts like us like it, and although it's an excellent, efficient cartridge, it hasn't exactly set the world on fire since its introduction.  6.5mm rounds in general have never really caught on here in the states compared to .270's and 7mm's.  I'm not sure why, but look at the 6.5 Swede, the .264 WM, and 6.5 RM.  Despite Remington's efforts to keep them alive, they've all been a bust here in the states.  The firearms industry is just like any other business -- if something doesn't sell very well, they don't produce it, no matter how good it is.  There aren't a huge variety of rifles chambered in .260.  It may be way too early to tell, but I hope its future isn't a repeat of its other 6.5 siblings.
I agree, I love my 260, but it has seen nothing but hand loads, so hopefully the brass and bullets will always be available.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2008 at 09:39
Off topic here, but I'm not so sure that the .260 would have been introduced as a standard factory chambering had it not been for somebody championing the cause.  Although a group of hardcore gun nuts like us like it, and although it's an excellent, efficient cartridge, it hasn't exactly set the world on fire since its introduction.  6.5mm rounds in general have never really caught on here in the states compared to .270's and 7mm's.  I'm not sure why, but look at the 6.5 Swede, the .264 WM, and 6.5 RM.  Despite Remington's efforts to keep them alive, they've all been a bust here in the states.  The firearms industry is just like any other business -- if something doesn't sell very well, they don't produce it, no matter how good it is.  There aren't a huge variety of rifles chambered in .260.  It may be way too early to tell, but I hope its future isn't a repeat of its other 6.5 siblings.

Edited by RifleDude - January/11/2008 at 09:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2008 at 09:27
the .280 is not a .284 that has been stretched, the .280 is a 30-06 necked down to 7mm just like the 270 is a 30-06 neck down to 6.8mm and just like the 25-06 is necked down to .257
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Focus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2008 at 09:20
Actually the 260 was jack o'conners illegitimate step child and jim C. gave it a bird name and rode the glory of creating it all the way to remingtons door step. It all started when jack started hanging around ackleys oldest daughter......:>) The 280....everybody knows thats a 284 thats been stretcheddddddd........

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2008 at 08:12
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

 The concepts are utterly simple, compared to what I do in my daily life.  I have explained it quite thoroughly.  As in the post I just made, you are using faulty logic to come to a conclusion.  If you headspace on the shoulder before the belt, there HAS to be a gap where I indicated that is no longer effaced to the chamber where the brass has to sustain the pressure head.  I do not think that you understand this simple concept.  You have two stopping points moving into the chamber.  One has to stop the cartridge from moving forward first, or both can stop it simultaneously.  If one stops it before the other a gap will exist at one point or the other.  That was your EXACT POINT about the inherent inaccuracy of the belted cartridge, as it headspaced on the belt and there was excessive slop as the cartridge sat in the chamber, albeit minimal.
 
These comments tell me that I evidently did a poor job of trying to explain this in numerous previous posts, repeatedly, in several different ways.  Did you not read my posts, or did you just scan over my comments and pick out only the parts of my "exact points" that you could then take out of context?  I thought I clearly answered your concern about this gap in front of the belt.  It isn't an issue, and there is no "danger" whatsoever with resizing so the case headspaces on the shoulder.  It's been done for decades by countless shooters, with many different cases.  It's nothing new.
 I agree, but I believe that as you pointed out the gap is so small and in many cases, the cartridge essentially headspaces on both.  I read all of your posts.  I think we were both so caught up in trying to explain our points from different perspectives that until we hit that unifying post, we just could not understand each other.  I completely understand your argument for why the belt is not needed and I agree.  Like I said in that one post, I really want to see more cartridges designed from the inside, just as the guys did with the 5mm/35 SMc.


Edited by Dolphin - January/11/2008 at 08:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyborg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2008 at 07:07
How can you guys keep all thwt info in your heads? I'm still trying to wrap my brain around some of this stuff. I prefer to use once fired brass and keep it for the rifle it was fired from. That's enough to keep my brain frazzled as it is........... You guys ROCK......... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ckk1106 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/2008 at 22:20
Thanks for the info rifledude.  Your posts made more sense than the others. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/2008 at 21:22
Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

That's bull, P, you just love an 19 page circle jerk Wink
ok you caught me there T, but if you really look at it i wasnt really involved with this thread much until the end, i was trying to stay out of it for fear of lookingBucky and that didnt work as is evident by my posts of ignorance and lack of hard core proof of anything other than i am hard header and a damn good fire man ( fireman resist change, tradition is the hardest thing to change in the fire service) and i dont think you will ever see me without belted rifles.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tahqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/2008 at 21:18
That's bull, P, you just love a 19 page circle jerk Wink


Edited by tahqua - January/10/2008 at 21:20
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/2008 at 21:13
i just hope nobody punches me in the face for being a sh*t head on this thread, i have enjoyed all the lessons being taught and i did learn some things that i didnt know so thanks to all for this thread, i know some got mad some didnt some are totally confused some dont care. but all in all i think it was great.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/2008 at 21:09
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

nope its all coincidence the reason the .260 came about is because some body got smart and said hey we have a neat idea we have a 6mm and a 7mm based off the .308 lets put it in a 6.5 because not to many 6.5 chambering exsist.
 
Sorry, but if you look on the opening paragraph of the Nosler reloading manual, 5th Edition, page 183 for the .260, Jim Carmichael explains how he created the .260 as a target round and Remington later adopted it based on his results in target shooting.  On page 311 of the Hornady 7th Edition reloading manual, the narrative also states the Mr. Carmichael invented the round.  Even Remington credits Mr. Carmichael with the creation of the .260.
 
 
just like swagging a belt on a 30-06 to make a 240 wby this was all a marketing ploy either way you look at it, and if they think people will buy it, why not make it, whether it was intended to be a target round or not you cannot tell me that every other 308 based round hasnt been turned into a hunting cartridge if it wasnt already, it was just a matter of time,  i have the 7th ed hornady i know what it says, and im not discrediting anyone, i just think its no fluke that its been very well accepted as a hunting round, being based off the .308 you had to know it was only a matter of time.
 
Yes, it probably would have happened anyway, one way or another, but just like technologies learned from racing ends up being used on passenger cars, concepts from competitive shooting also ends up being used for hunting rifles and cartridges.  None of the manufacturers will make anything, no matter how good, if they don't think it will sell.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/2008 at 21:01
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

nope its all coincidence the reason the .260 came about is because some body got smart and said hey we have a neat idea we have a 6mm and a 7mm based off the .308 lets put it in a 6.5 because not to many 6.5 chambering exsist.
 
Sorry, but if you look on the opening paragraph of the Nosler reloading manual, 5th Edition, page 183 for the .260, Jim Carmichael explains how he created the .260 as a target round and Remington later adopted it based on his results in target shooting.  On page 311 of the Hornady 7th Edition reloading manual, the narrative also states the Mr. Carmichael invented the round.  Even Remington credits Mr. Carmichael with the creation of the .260.
 
 
just like swagging a belt on a 30-06 to make a 240 wby this was all a marketing ploy either way you look at it, and if they think people will buy it, why not make it, whether it was intended to be a target round or not you cannot tell me that every other 308 based round hasnt been turned into a hunting cartridge if it wasnt already, it was just a matter of time,  i have the 7th ed hornady i know what it says, and im not discrediting anyone, i just think its no fluke that its been very well accepted as a hunting round, being based off the .308 you had to know it was only a matter of time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/2008 at 18:22
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

 The concepts are utterly simple, compared to what I do in my daily life.  I have explained it quite thoroughly.  As in the post I just made, you are using faulty logic to come to a conclusion.  If you headspace on the shoulder before the belt, there HAS to be a gap where I indicated that is no longer effaced to the chamber where the brass has to sustain the pressure head.  I do not think that you understand this simple concept.  You have two stopping points moving into the chamber.  One has to stop the cartridge from moving forward first, or both can stop it simultaneously.  If one stops it before the other a gap will exist at one point or the other.  That was your EXACT POINT about the inherent inaccuracy of the belted cartridge, as it headspaced on the belt and there was excessive slop as the cartridge sat in the chamber, albeit minimal.
 
These comments tell me that I evidently did a poor job of trying to explain this in numerous previous posts, repeatedly, in several different ways.  Did you not read my posts, or did you just scan over my comments and pick out only the parts of my "exact points" that you could then take out of context?  I thought I clearly answered your concern about this gap in front of the belt.  It isn't an issue, and there is no "danger" whatsoever with resizing so the case headspaces on the shoulder.  It's been done for decades by countless shooters, with many different cases.  It's nothing new.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/2008 at 17:57
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

Yes, this makes sense and is basically the same thing that I have been saying.  Thats why I hate having discussions on computers.  That is exactly what I have been trying to say and know.  Excellent.Yippee
 
So, then, since you understand and are now in agreement with me, you now agree that headspacing on the shoulder is superior to headspacing on a belt and that the practice is not "dangerous," right?  Then, it logically stands to reason that the belt is an unnecessary feature, correct? 


Edited by RifleDude - January/10/2008 at 18:02
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