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New cartridge designs, belted vs. non-belted

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pyro6999 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2007 at 13:20
ah man you guys cant quit now, your teaching me!!! im learning a lot about what goes on inside when the boom occurs and the sciences behind it working properly
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2007 at 13:26
Truthfully, I could not figure out what DC was saying.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2007 at 13:28
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

Truthfully, I could not figure out what DC was saying.
basically to put it in simple english, he thinks belted cases suck and are a waste of time and money and material
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2007 at 13:30
I really do not see the need for more experimentation with the belted cartridge, as a whole, I really do not see that many disadvantages.
no disadvantage to something already in the distribution system
but thats why experimentation continues on N0n-belted cases.
which part not intelligible.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2007 at 13:32
i really feel that until they came out with these new short mags and ultra mag that there really wasnt anything left to try, and i really feel that way now that the ultras and shorts and super shorts have come out
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2007 at 13:40
basically to put it in simple english, he thinks belted cases suck and are a waste of time and money and material
too harsh, not a cartridge whore -- its the rest of the shooting world I was talkin about.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2007 at 13:42
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

Ted, I think you misunderstood my statement with respect to Norma and Wby..  Norma manufactures its ammo in strict tolerances not only to SAAMI specs., but to Wby. rifles.  I have used non-Wby. brand Wby. cartridges and there is a clear difference in accuracy, hands down. 
The differences in accuracy has nothing to do with exterior case dimensions, which is what I'm referring to there, but instead, load data. 
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

As far a shooting fire formed brass, in the case of belted cartridges, if properly trimmed to size, you should be headspacing on the belt...
No, you wouldn't be, because you don't trim the shoulder, you trim the case mouth only, which has no effect on rim to shoulder height.  You are ALWAYS headspacing on the shoulder when loading with fireformed, neck sized only brass.  Setting the shoulder back is something that happens in a FL sizing die when you have it screwed all the way down to contact the shellholder on the up stroke of your press ram.  It doesn't trim brass, it compresses it back.
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

the tolerances for belted and non-belted cases should be no different...
They aren't, but I didn't say they were.  What I was referring to was how the case behaves when it contacts (headspaces on) the shoulder vs. the belt and why headspacing on the belt is inferior to the shoulder.
 
 


Edited by RifleDude - December/13/2007 at 13:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tahqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2007 at 13:56
I thought I pointed this out on page one of this discussion. The objective to not pushing back the shoulder on a belted case is to headspace off the shoulder, therfore decreasing stress on the case. The end result has been longer case life and better accuracy.
Bottom line; FL resizing of belted cartridges does nothing to aid accuracy and reduces case life. I will take a concentric case that fills the chamber to a safe max versus one on the low side for accuracy any day. 
I have never been able to obtain the accuracy from factory belted ammo that I get from home rolled.
If I had my way these cases wouldn't have the belt. Even the .375 H&H can easily headspace of the shoulder without the rim. They do have a belt and we are stuck with them but they are still excellent cartridges that have stood the test of time.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote timber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 04:02
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by timber timber wrote:

...Maybe that accounts for the reported higher incidence of extraction/ejection problems. 
 
There are no problems whatsoever with extracting WSM cases.  There can be problems with ejecting WSM cases, just due to the fact they are fat for their length, but not usually.  The main problem sometimes cited for the WSM cases is feeding from the magazine.  The combination of the fat case and short length means the round must travel up the feed ramp in a rather steep angle when chambering, so accommodations have to be made for widening the front portion of the feed rails to allow the rear portion of the case to pop out of the magazine earlier in the forward bolt travel and the feed ramp also must be modified from the normal profile used with standard short action rounds based on the .308 case.
 
Thanks for correcting me.  Knowledge of possible problems with ejecting and feeding of a WSM is important.  Manufacturers engineer different solutions for WSM parameters.   Perhaps the new Browning bolt action magazine is a response to this design challenge?
 
" A new detachable, rotary-design polymer magazine offers reliable feeding as each cartridge moves into perfectly centered alignment with the chamber."
 
 
As to the belted vs. non-belted comparison I have thoroughly enjoyed and learned much from the technical conversation here.  Ballistic Tables show much duplication of performance with the two (excepting perhaps the non-belted super mags), notwithstanding potential/realized accuracy differences.  
 
The seemingly endless variety of new chamberings moves the sport forward, including the debates that ensue.  It's all good. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 05:25
I spoke to a gunsmith yesterday who stated that all of the major manufactures, minus Wby. are having to rework their actions to withstand the extra pressures of the short mags.  He also told me that he has flared the top of 200 magazines for customers to allow proper chamber feeding for these cartridges, as he believes there is nothing inherently wrong with them, but the actions and magazines being used were not designed specifically for these cartridges.  After flaring the top of the magazines, the cartridge is allowed to move up without having to make a steep angle to the chamber and having the bolt grab it incorrectly and jam it.  He also stated, which I have not verified, that Rem. only chambers one model in the short mags. because of the above noted problems.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 08:00

magazines that allow straight line feeding, have at least one of 2 short fall, they must be removed from the gun to be loaded or they cannot be fed from the top. Steyer has been doing this for 30 years in their guns, and one of the reasons,I think they aren't as popular in the US.

Dolophin did the smith say exactly how manufactures where reworking their actions. Have a 223 WSSM and I can't tell any difference. (then of course this one may not need it.)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 08:12
actually remington chambers more than one short mag they are doing the 270wsm 7rsum 300wsm and 300rsum
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tahqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 08:22
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

I spoke to a gunsmith yesterday who stated that all of the major manufactures, minus Wby. are having to rework their actions to withstand the extra pressures of the short mags. 
 
That one isn't flying with me
 

 

Maximum Pressure ( in PSI UNLESS NOTED )

 

Recommended By SAAMI

7mm WSM

-

65,000

 

7mm Remington Magnum

-

61,000

 

7mm Weatherby Magnum

 

65,000

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 08:30
thats a great table doug, its intresting that the wsm and the ultra mags have equal pressures but the ultra is a lot bigger of a caase with more capacity.
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 09:21
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

I spoke to a gunsmith yesterday who stated that all of the major manufactures, minus Wby. are having to rework their actions to withstand the extra pressures of the short mags. 
 
 If your gunsmith did indeed say that, don't buy any real estate from that guy!  That's a bunch of crap.  First of all, there are no "extra pressures" involved, and the modifications to the actions chambering them involve magazine, feed rail, ramp geometry and bolt face diameter mods, all of which aren't strength enhancements, but case geometry accommodations.  Secondly, Weatherby only chambers 2 of the short mags, and not in the Mark V, but in the Vanguard, and the Vanguard is nothing special; it's just a dressed up Howa 1500.
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

He also told me that he has flared the top of 200 magazines for customers to allow proper chamber feeding for these cartridges
 
That's true, as I mentioned above, if I'm understanding what you mean by "flare."  But you don't have to do any modifications on new actions specifically designed for short mags.  If you are converting a .308 case-based short action to a short mag, you have to widen the front half of the feed rails to allow the case to release from the magazine before the shoulder is above the feed ramp, widen the ramp a little, install a wider magazine box, enlarge the bolt face counterbore, and install a different extractor.  All of that isn't worth the effort and cost in my opinion, when you can just buy an action designed around a short mag to begin with.
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

He also stated, which I have not verified, that Rem. only chambers one model in the short mags. because of the above noted problems.  
As Pyro stated, that's b.s. too, as they offer the M7 and a couple different variations of the M700 in short mags.
 
I wouldn't let this guy do any work for you.


Edited by RifleDude - December/14/2007 at 09:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 09:29
the way i understand it they just made a special follower to help fix the problem with the magazine
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 09:41
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

the way i understand it they just made a special follower to help fix the problem with the magazine
I forgot to mention the different follower; you are correct, but you also have to install a wider box as well or you will only have a 2 round magazine capacity because of the diameter of the cases.
 
The other option for magazine / feeding enhancement is the one Dale mentions.  There is at least one aftermarket magazine box conversion I'm aware of that converts your staggered feed magazine box and follower to a center feed design so the round doesn't have to feed from the magazine at a compound angle, but again, it reduces magazine capacity to 2 down.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 09:43
it only takes one ted especially with a magnum. well as long as the shooter does there part
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 09:46
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 09:52
BTW, for those who are interested, the aftermarket magazine box and follower I was referring to that converts your magazine from stagger feed to center feed with the WSM's is made by Wyatt's Outdoor.  To my knowledge, they only offer the WSM models for the Rem M700 and M7. 
 
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