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New cartridge designs, belted vs. non-belted |
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pyro6999
Optics Retard OT TITAN Joined: December/22/2006 Location: North Dakota Status: Offline Points: 22034 |
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ah man you guys cant quit now, your teaching me!!! im learning a lot about what goes on inside when the boom occurs and the sciences behind it working properly
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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead" 343 we will never forget God Bless Chris Ledoux "good ride cowboy" |
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Dolphin
Optics Master Joined: October/05/2006 Location: North Carolina Status: Offline Points: 1795 |
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Truthfully, I could not figure out what DC was saying.
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pyro6999
Optics Retard OT TITAN Joined: December/22/2006 Location: North Dakota Status: Offline Points: 22034 |
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basically to put it in simple english, he thinks belted cases suck and are a waste of time and money and material
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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead" 343 we will never forget God Bless Chris Ledoux "good ride cowboy" |
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Dale Clifford
Optics Jedi Knight Joined: July/04/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5087 |
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I really do not see the need for more experimentation with the belted cartridge, as a whole, I really do not see that many disadvantages.
no disadvantage to something already in the distribution system
but thats why experimentation continues on N0n-belted cases.
which part not intelligible.
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pyro6999
Optics Retard OT TITAN Joined: December/22/2006 Location: North Dakota Status: Offline Points: 22034 |
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i really feel that until they came out with these new short mags and ultra mag that there really wasnt anything left to try, and i really feel that way now that the ultras and shorts and super shorts have come out
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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead" 343 we will never forget God Bless Chris Ledoux "good ride cowboy" |
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Dale Clifford
Optics Jedi Knight Joined: July/04/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5087 |
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basically to put it in simple english, he thinks belted cases suck and are a waste of time and money and material
too harsh, not a cartridge whore -- its the rest of the shooting world I was talkin about.
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RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
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The differences in accuracy has nothing to do with exterior case dimensions, which is what I'm referring to there, but instead, load data.
No, you wouldn't be, because you don't trim the shoulder, you trim the case mouth only, which has no effect on rim to shoulder height. You are ALWAYS headspacing on the shoulder when loading with fireformed, neck sized only brass. Setting the shoulder back is something that happens in a FL sizing die when you have it screwed all the way down to contact the shellholder on the up stroke of your press ram. It doesn't trim brass, it compresses it back.
They aren't, but I didn't say they were. What I was referring to was how the case behaves when it contacts (headspaces on) the shoulder vs. the belt and why headspacing on the belt is inferior to the shoulder.
Edited by RifleDude - December/13/2007 at 13:45 |
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Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
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tahqua
MODERATOR Have You Driven A Ford Lately? Joined: March/27/2006 Location: Michigan, USA Status: Offline Points: 9044 |
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I thought I pointed this out on page one of this discussion. The objective to not pushing back the shoulder on a belted case is to headspace off the shoulder, therfore decreasing stress on the case. The end result has been longer case life and better accuracy.
Bottom line; FL resizing of belted cartridges does nothing to aid accuracy and reduces case life. I will take a concentric case that fills the chamber to a safe max versus one on the low side for accuracy any day.
I have never been able to obtain the accuracy from factory belted ammo that I get from home rolled.
If I had my way these cases wouldn't have the belt. Even the .375 H&H can easily headspace of the shoulder without the rim. They do have a belt and we are stuck with them but they are still excellent cartridges that have stood the test of time.
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timber
Optics Journeyman Joined: June/03/2007 Status: Offline Points: 354 |
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Thanks for correcting me. Knowledge of possible problems with ejecting and feeding of a WSM is important. Manufacturers engineer different solutions for WSM parameters. Perhaps the new Browning bolt action magazine is a response to this design challenge?
" A new detachable, rotary-design polymer magazine offers reliable feeding as each cartridge moves into perfectly centered alignment with the chamber."
As to the belted vs. non-belted comparison I have thoroughly enjoyed and learned much from the technical conversation here. Ballistic Tables show much duplication of performance with the two (excepting perhaps the non-belted super mags), notwithstanding potential/realized accuracy differences.
The seemingly endless variety of new chamberings moves the sport forward, including the debates that ensue. It's all good.
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Dolphin
Optics Master Joined: October/05/2006 Location: North Carolina Status: Offline Points: 1795 |
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I spoke to a gunsmith yesterday who stated that all of the major manufactures, minus Wby. are having to rework their actions to withstand the extra pressures of the short mags. He also told me that he has flared the top of 200 magazines for customers to allow proper chamber feeding for these cartridges, as he believes there is nothing inherently wrong with them, but the actions and magazines being used were not designed specifically for these cartridges. After flaring the top of the magazines, the cartridge is allowed to move up without having to make a steep angle to the chamber and having the bolt grab it incorrectly and jam it. He also stated, which I have not verified, that Rem. only chambers one model in the short mags. because of the above noted problems.
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Dale Clifford
Optics Jedi Knight Joined: July/04/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5087 |
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magazines that allow straight line feeding, have at least one of 2 short fall, they must be removed from the gun to be loaded or they cannot be fed from the top. Steyer has been doing this for 30 years in their guns, and one of the reasons,I think they aren't as popular in the US. Dolophin did the smith say exactly how manufactures where reworking their actions. Have a 223 WSSM and I can't tell any difference. (then of course this one may not need it.) |
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pyro6999
Optics Retard OT TITAN Joined: December/22/2006 Location: North Dakota Status: Offline Points: 22034 |
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actually remington chambers more than one short mag they are doing the 270wsm 7rsum 300wsm and 300rsum
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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead" 343 we will never forget God Bless Chris Ledoux "good ride cowboy" |
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tahqua
MODERATOR Have You Driven A Ford Lately? Joined: March/27/2006 Location: Michigan, USA Status: Offline Points: 9044 |
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That one isn't flying with me
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