OpticsTalk by SWFA, Inc. Homepage SWFA     SampleList.com
Forum Home Forum Home > Firearms, Bows, and Ammunition > Firearms
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - New cartridge designs, belted vs. non-belted
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Visit the SWFA.com site to check out our current specials.

New cartridge designs, belted vs. non-belted

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 23456 10>
Author
Message
RifleDude View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
EVIL OPPRESSOR

Joined: October/13/2006
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 16337
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 09:53
Sorry, Pyro, I was posting the same link as you at the same time.
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.
Back to Top
pyro6999 View Drop Down
Optics Retard
Optics Retard
Avatar
OT TITAN

Joined: December/22/2006
Location: North Dakota
Status: Offline
Points: 22034
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 09:56
thats funny ted i beat you to a punch i should go buy a lottery ticket for sat. drawing! lucky that was
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"
Back to Top
timber View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman


Joined: June/03/2007
Status: Offline
Points: 354
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote timber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 12:32
Hopefully this hasn't been covered before and/or isn't too far off topic.  I'd like to ask about WSM's and barrel lengths.  I don't have the terminology so help me out here.
 
I was talking to one gun dealer about WSM's recently.  He used to competively shoot and said the short magnums in part came from the idea of shooters experimenting (successfully) with same.  The idea was to get a consistent burn from shot to shot and that was accomplished to a greater degree with the 'shorts' compared to longer cartridges.  He further said that pressures and burn times were essentially the same with standard length and short versions of the same powder capacity (and caliber of course).
 
From this he concluded that rifle barrel lengths could only be shortened by the same amount as the shorter casing to have equal performance to a longer casing with the same powder capacity.  In other words if, for example, a 300 WSM was approximately 1/2" shorter tha say a 300 win mag then the rifle barrel should only be shortened by 1/2" to maintain equal performance.  Is this true?  If so then all those 23" and 24" 300 WSM barrels are too short compared to a 26" 300 win mag.  That would also explain why subjectively too me they are louder and have more muzzle blast/flash than the old belted's with 26" barrels.
 
 
Back to Top
pyro6999 View Drop Down
Optics Retard
Optics Retard
Avatar
OT TITAN

Joined: December/22/2006
Location: North Dakota
Status: Offline
Points: 22034
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 12:39
what the whole deal with the short fat powder colums is that its suppose to give a more uniform burn which is suppose to translate to be accuracy with less powder and still have equal performance to the belted long actions, and they say they can do it with a shorter barrel which like you said is in that 20-24" range, i have a hard time buying it myself but im not an expert and who knows if the guys doing the magzine articles and testing of these arent paid off to say they can, but to me its seems like the shorter the barrel is the slower its going to be able to push a bullet, and also the less amount of time it has to stabilize a bullet
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"
Back to Top
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight


Joined: July/04/2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 5087
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 13:00
As the shock wave propgates from the primer it passes through the powder mass and is reflected back to the center of the charge by the angle of the shoulder. Hopefully the meeting place is somewhere in the middle of the case, In shorter BR cases and the wsm type stuff this works in a more ideal case than longer cases. Whether it is advantageous is subject to the quality of the remaining parts, If the rest of the gun can't take advantage of it any gain is for naught.
Back to Top
pyro6999 View Drop Down
Optics Retard
Optics Retard
Avatar
OT TITAN

Joined: December/22/2006
Location: North Dakota
Status: Offline
Points: 22034
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 14:09
okay so now that we have made it this far, can some one tell me what they were thinking when the designed the .284 winchester?
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"
Back to Top
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight


Joined: July/04/2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 5087
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 14:13
its the guns in this case, need a cooper in a 26in, single action to seat the bullets out, probably duplicate 7mm without the belt.
original rd. was intended for short box magazines in repeaters.
Back to Top
pyro6999 View Drop Down
Optics Retard
Optics Retard
Avatar
OT TITAN

Joined: December/22/2006
Location: North Dakota
Status: Offline
Points: 22034
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 14:16
yeah but it fell short of the 7mm performance it didnt equal up to a .280rem
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"
Back to Top
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight


Joined: July/04/2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 5087
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 14:43
but it does outperform a 308 which is its magazine size
Back to Top
pyro6999 View Drop Down
Optics Retard
Optics Retard
Avatar
OT TITAN

Joined: December/22/2006
Location: North Dakota
Status: Offline
Points: 22034
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 14:43
yeah but was it as accurate?
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"
Back to Top
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight


Joined: July/04/2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 5087
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 14:55
in the gun it was designed for, personally I'm suprized not to see the 284 used more in tactical type rifles that use the 308.
Back to Top
Argie View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper
Avatar

Joined: September/25/2007
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 28
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Argie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 15:56
To round up the "belted/unbelted" cartidge discussion:
Belts don't make "stronger" cases, on the contrary, they weaken the cartridge-gun system.
Why? Because steel is stronger than brass and in order to fit the belted shell in the chamber you have to remove a ring of steel, just in the place where pressures are higher.
But you still find gun writers repeating this wrong notion.Wink
Back to Top
timber View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman


Joined: June/03/2007
Status: Offline
Points: 354
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote timber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 17:58
Hey Dale can you elaborate on the 'shock wave' created when a round is fired.  I vaguely remember reading an article about this and it seemed logical.  But I can't remember the specifics.  Thanks.
 
And Dale what do you think about the shorter barrels used with the WSM's?  Is this defeating the magnum powder capacity of the WSM's?  Is it just a marketing scheme?


Edited by timber - December/14/2007 at 18:00
Back to Top
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight


Joined: July/04/2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 5087
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/15/2007 at 07:28
when we think of terms like flame front, it is typcially something like the flame you would see sitting around the campfire, but its not-- its a condition of vibration at a very high frequency, and this vibration has the ability to make the bonds in the molecules vibrate much faster than usual, past a condition called the activation energy and this vibration breaks the bonds and allows the individual molecules to cascade down an energy scale. The "flame" that is observed is the atom's electron coming back down from the activation as releasing photons in the process in the range of electromagnetic energy we call light. This shock wave has all the properties of traveling waves, amplitude, phase, frequency, and wavelength and as such they can be "manipulated".
shorter barrels and wsm are good, but the bigger question is what does any improvement mean in a device that is antiquated. ie bolt actions. In this regard i think it is a marketing scheme, my big complaint is one less round in the mag. The nature of the scheme, or with all the long mags in the distribution system ensures their longevity. Not to knock weatherbys -- but do you see any other manufacturers making rifles with their rounds? Personally my next project in this area is a wsm in 7mm AR10 with a carbon fiber barrel, from christensen.
Back to Top
Big Squeeze View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar
GOOGLE NINJA

Joined: August/30/2007
Location: Anaheim, Calif.
Status: Offline
Points: 3143
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Squeeze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/15/2007 at 12:58
How about a 375 Ruger necked down to the 30 or the 338? Have a feeling thats a coming!!
Back to Top
pyro6999 View Drop Down
Optics Retard
Optics Retard
Avatar
OT TITAN

Joined: December/22/2006
Location: North Dakota
Status: Offline
Points: 22034
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/15/2007 at 13:17
they already did squeeze thats what the new ruger short mags are based off

Edited by pyro6999 - December/15/2007 at 13:20
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"
Back to Top
timber View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman


Joined: June/03/2007
Status: Offline
Points: 354
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote timber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/15/2007 at 18:38
Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

As the shock wave propgates from the primer it passes through the powder mass and is reflected back to the center of the charge by the angle of the shoulder. Hopefully the meeting place is somewhere in the middle of the case, In shorter BR cases and the wsm type stuff this works in a more ideal case than longer cases. Whether it is advantageous is subject to the quality of the remaining parts, If the rest of the gun can't take advantage of it any gain is for naught.
 
In this last sentence are you refering to barrel length, quality or specifications of the barrel or something else?
 
I read your deeper explanation of 'shock wave'.  Thanks for taking the time to explain although I can't say I understand all of it.  You are saying that these shorter cases do in fact promote this ideal 'shock wave' event and therefore potentially can be one factor in a more accurate rifle.  But to take advantage of this you have to have superior rifle specifications/components.  Is that a correct reading? 
 
Forgive me for harping on this but does the shorter length barrels commonly found with the WSM's negate any advantage to this ideal shock wave (namely improved potential accuracy) and does it significantly affect their muzzle velocity/energy?  Or to put it even more succinctly, should ALL magnums have long barrels (say 26" or more) and the shorter barrels (say 24" and less) should be left to the standards?
 
Back to Top
Focus View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar
Conquistador!!

Joined: June/05/2007
Location: Maine
Status: Offline
Points: 1006
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Focus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/15/2007 at 18:56
The barrel length won't have any effect on what Dale is explaining on the primer shock wave through the powder charge. Actually barrel length will have an effect on barrel harmonics, a different wave of movement as the bullet travels down the barrel. Benchrest shooters capitalize on the short fat cartridge designs but also tend to use 20-21" barrels except in very long range applications. Short stiff barrels have tighter harmonics that are easier to tune the projectile departure to with powder charge and oal tuning. You simply need enough barrel to utilize the bulk of your powder charge, and achieve the velocity you are looking for within reason. Read the short barrel 30 caliber thread....especially the posts by Big Squeeze.

Focus

Edited by Focus - December/15/2007 at 18:58
I Can See Clearly Now......<><

If Accurate rifles Are Interesting.....I've Got Some Savages That Are Getting Mighty Interesting......
Back to Top
Big Squeeze View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar
GOOGLE NINJA

Joined: August/30/2007
Location: Anaheim, Calif.
Status: Offline
Points: 3143
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Squeeze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/15/2007 at 21:02
Pyro...............Those new Ruger short mags are not the same dimensions in length as the Ruger 375 casing. They are based on the 375 Ruger, but are shorter in length then the actual 375 Ruger casing!!!! What I was referring to was the same length, width, everything, with the exception of caliber diameter!!! 
Back to Top
pyro6999 View Drop Down
Optics Retard
Optics Retard
Avatar
OT TITAN

Joined: December/22/2006
Location: North Dakota
Status: Offline
Points: 22034
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/15/2007 at 21:07
right i take it i forgot to say they sawed the 375 case down huh? well im thinking if they made something like that in the full length case wouldnt be about like the rem ultra mag?
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 23456 10>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.112 seconds.