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short barrel .30 cals....

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Squeeze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/15/2007 at 13:08
Correction!!!!!!!!!!!!....................Jeff Quinn`s article on "gunblast.com" regarding the Ruger Frontier velocities with factory ammo is on the date of Feb. 22,`05!....Not on Feb.10 `04 as I previously mentioned in my above post! Click on archive, then scroll down to Feb. 22nd, 2005!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote www.technika.nu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2007 at 03:38
Big Squese
 
A cartrigde can of course be loaded to better fit shorter barrels than others, if faster powders are choosed.
But I don't belive this can be done within the CIP/SAAMI maximum preassures.
2994 on a 180 grains bullet in 16,5" barrel does in my world either indicate that your loads are WAY to hot, or that you need to replace your chronograph.
 
Shorter barrels are NOT always more accurate than longer ones.
In a lot of cases when there is lots of gaspreasure left when the bullets leaves the barrel this gaspreasure will have a very negative effect on the bullet.
I have a 6,5x55 Ackley improved  with 24" barrel that have been very difficult to have to shoot really good, some loads do but mostly not.
I installed a silencer on the gun recently and all the loads that I had left that shot really poor without silcencer shoots like a dream with the silcener on.
Yes of course can the barrelvibrations have been changed but most likely is the accuracy now instead a result of the silcencer is removing the muzzlepreasure from the bullet.
 
The accuracy you get 1,20" or less is in now way impressive and nothing I would accept for a long range rifle.
 
I love short barrel guns, but I do not belive in slow burning powder cartridges with excessive volyme for that. But small cartridges like .308, .358 Win 9,3x57, 9x57 etc is perfect choises for short barrels.
Big amounts of slow burning powder and to hot loads means very short barrellife, big and loud muzzleblast, and nothing gained.
 
 
Regards Technika


Edited by www.technika.nu - December/16/2007 at 03:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Squeeze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2007 at 08:14
TECHNIKA..............Got some news for ya BRO!!!Fro........I did check my reloads with another chrono that a friend of mine has! The only deviation between my results with my chrono and his chrono were on the order of 9 fps. average for the 180 gr. loads!!...ShockedShocked Furthermore, I had no primer cratering or shiny spots on the base. The bolt lift was somewhat more difficult by a small percentage, but not enough to be concerned about!ShockedShocked........Other 300 WSM documented recorded test velocities, using 180 gr. reloads from the 24" tubes have exceeded 3100 fps. When you deduct approx. 4.5% for the shorter barrel, that falls right on par with my chrono results (both times). Why is it, that an approx. 4.5% loss in velocity is not to be believed or hard to understand???? You under estimate the velocity capabilities of the shorter barrels and NO, I will not be replacing my chrono!!! She works just fine!!Thunbs%20Up.............As long as my casings and primers have no indications of pressure and I get a good bolt lift, it doesn`t matter what SAAMI says!!.........1.20" OR LESS (OUTSIDE TO OUTSIDE) over here in the states for hunting loads are good enough!! These are NOT match loads! These are HUNTING loads!Eek  I will still hit an elk or deer in the vitals at 300 and 400 yards or longer if necessary!......................Your opinions about shorter barrels not always being more accurate than longer ones, directly contradict Dick Metcalf in his article "Short Answer About Scout Styled Rifles" NOW on "shootingtimes.com" under the "long guns" section. I suggest you read it!!! Based on his age and years of experience with shorter barrels vs. how young you look in your pics, I`d say that good `ol Dick Metcalf has been shooting longer than YOU have been alive!!!!! If you don`t mind, I`ll trust my own intuition, my own chrono results, plus his experience rather than yours!!!!!! You may not wish to believe some things and have your own opinions! That`s ok! You are entitled to your opinions!..............But what I have, IS what you DON`T have! Physical evidence!! Results!! NOT based on opinions, hypotheticals or conjecture, but based on facts from the physical evidence!!..... Until you find a Ruger Frontier 300 WSM with a 16.5" barrel, do some reload experimentation, then chrono those reloads, you have ZIP, ZERO, NADA. Those 3 words in the states mean "NOTHING"...You have your opinions! I HAVE FACTS!! You would lose in a court room if you brought your opinions and I brought my facts to the table!!............Shorter barrel life you say??? Who said that I will be consistently using the above hunting loads??? I didn`t!!.........LOUD?? MUZZLE BLAST??? Maybe the guy next to me at the range might care! But I don`t!!....Wait until I start using some IMR 4007 SSC!! Velocity will be reduced somewhat, but the groups will then be less than 3/4"..... Perhaps that will be more acceptable by your European standards?????? ........However, some of your advice has merit. I am considering the 2x Aimpoint scope for my new Ruger Alaskan which I can also use on the 300 WSM Frontier either in the scout position or as a conventional mount!!...............By the way! Ruger discontinued production of the WSM`s in their Frontier line because of patent infringement reasons! You would be hard pressed to find one!!....But until you do????  Again!!! You have ZIP! ZERO! NADA!!!!!!!! In case you were wondering, NADA is Spanish, which also means NOTHING!!...........................Merry (Christ) mas!!    Merry%20Christmas
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2007 at 08:28
the jan/feb issue of rifleshooter talks about the new 300 and .338 rcm's and the minds at hornady have come up with some special powder to increse speeds in these shorter tubes and keep the pressures inside of the acceptable limits and yes actually shorter barrels tend to be more accurate, read the article its all in there, recoil is described a civil, the speeds are in between a 30-06 and a 300wsm for the .300rcm and about the same as a 30-06 with a 180gr bullet for the .338 rcm shooting a 225gr bullet
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2007 at 10:09
T/C test 15-20 years ago showed short barrels to be just as accurate as long barrels, in fact a new chambered 14 in will out shoot most target rifles.  on the other hand as the bullet escapes the barrel, the charge being of considerable less mass is accelerated around the bullet at higher velocity, possibly causing upset, flash supressors such as the current one on the ar's with the closed bottom can cause accuracy changes,(hopefully it occurs the same each time). other manufacturers such as sako use off set baffles to avoid this. (one reason why theirs is one of best). silencers and breaks (in no way does a brake or silencer act as a "brake  " but only break the direction of the gas flow. ) generally any silencer will show too hot of loads, this is always a problem with ar's and cans. the energy residual acts just like having that many more inches of barrel and about 2x the number of joules is left in the pressure curve. Thus as the case shrinks back to its unfired dimensions it's hit with more energy and the case heads "looks" just like an overload.
It is not possible to predict whether a short barrel will be more accurate, as the two sets of variables are manipulated in different ways. Reloaders do it with cartridge, bullet , powder and those with unlimited supplys of standardized ammo (military) do it with the weapon components.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Focus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2007 at 10:20
Hmmm.....thats one of the best explanations I've seen yet printed on bbl length and accuracy in relation to energy residual exiting the barrel. Manipulation is accomplished in a variety of ways as stated. Thats what the optimal charge weight theory is based on and all about. Thats why handloaders get so obessed with charge weight and the seating depth of bullets in relation to the lands.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Squeeze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2007 at 14:15
A general rule of thumb, but not absolute UNTIL chrono results are done is,,,,that in most rifles, expect a 15 to a 30 fps. loss in velocity for every inch of shorter barrel length! My chrono results support that as it compares with other 300 WSM rifles with 24" barrels!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote www.technika.nu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2007 at 14:45
Shorter barrel may absolutely be more accurate than longer ones when faster powders are used. But when slow burning powders are used the precisionresult may be just the opposite.
 
300 WSM with a 180 grain bullet is a 3000 fps round, and that is from a 24 or maybe even 26" barrel.
From a 16,5" barrel such velocities is nothing else than pure overloads, and you would heavly loose in a courtroom as a preassure gun would prove your loads to be very unsafe.
 
IF and I say IF it have been possible to manufacture ammuntion and guns that produced 3000 FPS with a 16,5" barrel then would the producers do so.
But they arent, there is no manufacturer on the earth that is stating such results as they cannot be safe and within the margins.
If they could Winchester for example would manufacture such loads  and win a big market share as nobody else could. Every fps for a factory load is gaining sales and there is a good reason why they don't produce those loads.
 
You are playing with the fire and one day you will get burnt.
 
Regards Technika
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2007 at 15:02
actually hornady can and they are proving it with the 300wsm and also the new 300rcm  with short barrels

Edited by pyro6999 - December/16/2007 at 15:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote www.technika.nu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2007 at 15:17
20" barrels yes, not 16,5"
And that is 2900 FPS not 3100 FPS............
 
This is not about magic, here is physical laws prevent those fantastic results from being archived, at least so far.
 
Regards Technika
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2007 at 15:20
i dont think you realize that they are using in house means to manipulate powder to make it work
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote www.technika.nu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2007 at 15:23
I know that, and that is another reason why I say it's impossible for a handloader to make those fantasic loads.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2007 at 15:41
i wouldnt say impossible, but maybe some day we can do it safely, i myself dont care for shorter barrels so i guess its not really my fight anyways
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Squeeze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2007 at 16:10
Technika!!!...............................2994 fps. with a 180 gr. bullet from a 16.5" barrel IS a fact, regardless of SAAMI, pressures, your logic, your personal opinions, what you feel, what you think, or what you believe!! You can make any argument you wish to based on any logic you wish and justify them in your own mind!!.........You say its impossible for the handloader to make fantastic loads? ARE YOU SURE???? Remember! You are forgetting that each individual rifle is different! The velocities that I have achieved in my Frontier may not be possible in another 300 WSM Frontier using the same reloads. Another Frontier may fall short 100 fps or so!!!!.............You are just SO determined and HARD HEADED to think that this is a total impossibility, rather than consider the individual rifle!!! THAT is your big mistake here!! Did you read Metcalf`s article? Probably not!! Have you checked other reloading data supporting a 3100 fps. plus capability for the 300 WSM 180 gr. 24" barrel?? Probably not!!..............You can up with all of the reasons why not; slower powders, barrel length, gases, or whatever!! That still does not negate the facts which two seperate chronos have confirmed!! What you think is impossible, I have made possible!!..... Even the Ruger Frontier 300 WSM in Jeff Quinn`s article on "gunblast.com" dated 2/22/05 reached 2796 fps. with factory 180gr. ammo! That exceeded the 180gr. velocity from your 20" Browning using factory ammo! Did you read that article too??? Probably not!!!............Why don`t you try some different powders, bullets, primers etc. and do some thorough experimentation with your 20" Browning. You just may be surprised!! But don`t say that your opinions automatically make things not possible! For one thing, you don`t own a Frontier in 300 WSM, let alone ever chronographed one! That alone makes your opinions, logic and emotions invalid!!! You may say or think that it is impossible to achieve the velocities I have!..........Then! Jeff Quinn must be wrong! Dick Metcalf must be wrong! The two chronographs must be wrong!! Other articles and their authors which I can site, written on this same rifle, must all be wrong too!!! I find that quite amusing!!!......You go ahead and continue to believe what you want and continue to justify it in your own mind!!...............Nothing is changed!!WhackoWhackoWhackoWhackoWhackoWhackoWhackoWhackoWhackoWhackoWhackoWhackoWhackoWhackoWhackoWhackoWhackoWhackoWhackoWhackoWhacko      
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Squeeze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2007 at 17:18
Technika!...........................I did mention this earlier, BUT not to the degree I`m going to mention it now!!.....From your 20" Browning BAR, your 180 gr. factory loads show 2624 fps.... Jeff Quinn`s test 300 WSM Frontier shows a 2796 fps. max. for a 180 gr. using factory ammo from a 16.5" barrel!!!.....At 2624 fps., you show a decrease of 172 fps. from a barrel that is 3.5" longer????!!!!...................Also, I`m willing to bet that a strong bolt action will take higher pressures comfortably, hence more velocity than a BAR!!!...........Based on YOUR FACTS and what YOU show and NOT based on opinions, emotions, powders, gases, theories, or which way the world turns and from which direction the sun rises,,,,it seems to me, BASED ON YOUR RESULTS,,,that your BAR`s,,,,,,,,,,as far as velocity potential is concerned,,,,,,REALLY SUCK!!!!!!!..........THAT seems to be a real fact!! NOT, based on my opinion!!!!! Whistling Hey!! MAYBE your factory loads in Europe are underloaded from NORMA?????? WinkWinkWinkWinkWink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tahqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2007 at 19:35
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2007 at 19:43

Heard this discussion about 20 years ago when remingtion had just released the accelerators , and people were trying to duplicate the ballistics with sabots in the same way. Some did I'm sure.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2007 at 19:46
accelerators were hard on barrels
They call me "Boots"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2007 at 20:02
mostly just inaccurate, but the sabot saved alot of the wear as the surface area of the burn had a much larger ratio than say a 17 or 204.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2007 at 20:14
i cant see where 4000 fps out of a 30-06 can be easy on the barrel
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
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