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SWFA Scope Scale Discussion Thread (2008)

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Tip69 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tip69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/19/2008 at 19:04
Originally posted by Chris Farris Chris Farris wrote:

The scale below was formed by SWFA sales staff, customer service, pro-staff and owners using personal experience, customer input and facts supplied by the manufacturers.  The ranking system is based on the following criteria (in order of importance and weight).

 

1.  Optical Quality - How bright and clear the scope is.

2.  Specifications - Field of view, eye relief, weight, adjustment travel, etc.

3.  Durability - How do they with stand the test of time.

4.  Special Features & Options - Proprietary items (reticles, design, turrets), Zoom ratio.

5.  Warranty & Customer Service - How good are they.

6.  Value - Bang for your buck.

 

 
If I were creating this scale, I would just use the first 3 criteria only.  The other 3 are really subjective and might be better utilized within the forum.  I.e.  doesn't take much reading to find that most folks here feel the 4200 3-9X40 is a great deal or that certain companies have less than desirable cs.  Does this make any sense?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike650 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/19/2008 at 20:23
Originally posted by Tip69 Tip69 wrote:

Originally posted by Chris Farris Chris Farris wrote:

The scale below was formed by SWFA sales staff, customer service, pro-staff and owners using personal experience, customer input and facts supplied by the manufacturers.  The ranking system is based on the following criteria (in order of importance and weight).

 

1.  Optical Quality - How bright and clear the scope is.

2.  Specifications - Field of view, eye relief, weight, adjustment travel, etc.

3.  Durability - How do they with stand the test of time.

4.  Special Features & Options - Proprietary items (reticles, design, turrets), Zoom ratio.

5.  Warranty & Customer Service - How good are they.

6.  Value - Bang for your buck.

 

 
If I were creating this scale, I would just use the first 3 criteria only.  The other 3 are really subjective and might be better utilized within the forum.  I.e.  doesn't take much reading to find that most folks here feel the 4200 3-9X40 is a great deal or that certain companies have less than desirable cs.  Does this make any sense?


It'd be interesting to see what happens just as a test. I think #6 alone creates a shift.

Bottom line, thank you Chris for taking the time to do the scales, I really appreciate it and will continue to refer to it!!! Yippee


Edited by mike650 - February/19/2008 at 22:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote antleraddiction Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/19/2008 at 21:17
Originally posted by mike650 mike650 wrote:

Originally posted by Tip69 Tip69 wrote:

Originally posted by Chris Farris Chris Farris wrote:

The scale below was formed by SWFA sales staff, customer service, pro-staff and owners using personal experience, customer input and facts supplied by the manufacturers.  The ranking system is based on the following criteria (in order of importance and weight).

 

1.  Optical Quality - How bright and clear the scope is.

2.  Specifications - Field of view, eye relief, weight, adjustment travel, etc.

3.  Durability - How do they with stand the test of time.

4.  Special Features & Options - Proprietary items (reticles, design, turrets), Zoom ratio.

5.  Warranty & Customer Service - How good are they.

6.  Value - Bang for your buck.

 

 
If I were creating this scale, I would just use the first 3 criteria only.  The other 3 are really subjective and might be better utilized within the forum.  I.e.  doesn't take much reading to find that most folks here feel the 4200 3-9X40 is a great deal or that certain companies have less than desirable cs.  Does this make any sense?


It'd be interesting to see what happens just as a test. I think #6 alone creates a shift.

Bottom line, that you Chris for taking the time to do the scales, I really appreciate it and will continue to refer to it!!! Yippee
 
I'm wondering if #3 should not be removed from the scale............Who tested the scopes to determine "How do they with stand the test of time"? Some of these scopes just came outLoco
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/19/2008 at 21:38
cf2 beat the hell out of them on the pavement! lol
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Tip69 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tip69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/19/2008 at 22:31
I think #3 is valid........ this forum along with SWFA are able to let us know about issues.  And the newer releases from solid companies get the benefit until something changes.
take em!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HOLLOWPOINT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/19/2008 at 23:40
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We stocked them at one time and had decided to let them go but they do offer many other products other than rifle scopes that are very good products.  They made a proposition to us for us to keep their products on our web page and catalog.  The deal was that they will drop ship and handle all customer service issues rapidly and work to improve the problems with their QC.  If things don't get better we will remove the rifle scopes from our site and catalog.  They are very good people that are willing to listen and learn.  I am hoping that they will regain our respect and that we will have them on our shelves again some day.
 
Thank you for that honest and very informative answer! Super
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tahqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/20/2008 at 09:10
Originally posted by Chris Farris Chris Farris wrote:

Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

Whats the deal with Shepards?  I have often wondered about those scopes, the reticle seems like a cool idea.
 
Mainly the deal is that they don't sell.
 
LOL, that is a good one, Chris.
Thanks for the earlier response. I look forward to sales figures in another year to see if there is a change.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote medic52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/20/2008 at 09:39
Chris, Thank you for the scale and info. I appreciate your efforts and time. I have made purchases from SWFA for different scopes that range from a 2 to 6 on your new scale. All 6 items that make up your list is also on my list when I make a decision to purchase a scope, however due to your informational site here, the people who post their opinions and experience help me make my decisions when it comes time to give you my credit card number. So far all my purchases have been exactly what I expected from the scopes I choose. SWFA's customer service people that I have dealt with all have been GREAT. I am in the process of trying to decide on my next scope today, decision has not been made yet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chris Farris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/20/2008 at 10:20
Originally posted by antleraddiction antleraddiction wrote:

I'm wondering if #3 should not be removed from the scale............Who tested the scopes to determine "How do they with stand the test of time"? Some of these scopes just came outLoco
 
In many cases we are directly involved in the development and testing of new products from many of the manufacturers.  In the case of the 6500, we know how long it has been under development and that it is coming from the same factory that produces the 4200.]
 
Originally posted by Tip69 Tip69 wrote:

I think #3 is valid........ this forum along with SWFA are able to let us know about issues.  And the newer releases from solid companies get the benefit until something changes.
 
Exactly!!  Durability is a given for certain brands.  For instance when Ford comes out with a new truck, it would be a reasonable deduction that it will be as durable or more durable than previous offerings.  If new products are not with standing the test of time then it will be noted and their placement adjusted.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote turkeytalker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/20/2008 at 19:23
Are these optics exclusively the 2008 models or are they mixed, ie Millett has a new scope generation, but they still have the Gold, silver, and lightning models?
 
How's the Burris Timberline look, especially with the 32mm objective?  Looks like the Short Mag under a new label, but with a good price.
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Texas View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Texas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/20/2008 at 19:44
I don't see the Kahles Helia CS on this list or the 2007 version.  I have a CL yet to be mounted, and it seems wonderful looking through it comparing to my Leupolds.  But, since I ordered a CS of the Sample List yesterday, I am left wondering how it rates relative to the CL line?  I expect the CS to be delivered tomorrow so I can compare myself - but I want to know what those with more experience think also.
 
Thanks to Chris for the new ratings list, and thanks for hosting this board, because I get a lot from reading it daily.  I think it may be addictive!
 
Tom
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Black Squirrel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/20/2008 at 19:57
Wow. Nice list. Thank you for compiling it. It serves as a great guide for many people who cannot sit there and actually handle each of these side by side. That is an advantage someone from SWFA has over a regular Joe not in the optics business.


I've been mostly a lurker around here and I always check out these rating threads. I'm going to add my $0.02. I think most of the controversy revolves around one simple fact. The vast, vast majority of people want an all-out optical clarity/brightness scale. It's almost always the reason why a scope ranking is criticized.

When you factor in customer service and features, those two factors can easily bump a scope up or down a position, maybe even two positions.

I've handled a lot of scopes, but not all of those on the list. Handling is a whole lot differnet from really spending time with one to compare side by side. I've found that a cursory inspection of a scope is simply not enough. Looking through one at the range that someone else has, checking one out a gun shop. Not enough. Until you own them or have lots of time to sit side by side and compare against various factors, it's difficult to say which one is optically better when two scopes are very close contenders.

From the average amount I know, I think the ratings are pretty good. So what if something is a little high or a little low. At least you know which class it is in. If I had to criticize it, I would criticize the Trijicon ranking. Owning a few and others above and below it on the ranking scale, I can say that the glass is better than the ranking shows. Also, their customer service is nothing short of spectacular in my experience. They had my scope back in 5 business days! WOW. But, if features and specs were weighted in, it could lower the ranking. They don't shine (pardon the pun) in areas like adjustability and other features. They are fairly plain scopes whose attraction is the illumination system.

Judging by what the original post says, according to Chris' reasoning, this isn't an optical quality only scale, nor a fan-boy scale (haha). It's a general purpose scale. You can tell it is objective by the placement of their own scope the Super Sniper.

Personally, I think that is better. I'd trade a tiny difference in optical quality for a company that will back me up 100% with no hassle warranty service. That is worth 1-2% worse glass if you have to compromise. Sometimes, the difference is so small it's really not even practical. Nothing is worse than buying a scope only to have something go wrong, and something can go wrong on even the most high dollar scope, only to have the manufacturer jerk you around not wanting to fix it, or taking it in for repair and waiting over 3 months or more to get it back.  If that happens, and it will happen the more scopes you own and the longer you own them, you will no longer care about that 1% optical edge that you can barely notice anyway.

Others will trade glass and customer service for a ton of features or capabilities.


Given all of that, a general purpose scale is fine. Perhaps someday, if someone is generous enough to do it, an all optical quality scale could be made. That wouldn't eliminate the controversies as people will then argue over glass quality, but it eliminate most of them due to the fact that this scale lowers or increases scopes based on factors other than optical quality.


Smile




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jonbravado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/21/2008 at 07:37
i think with very few exceptions/disagreements - it looks very good.
 
nice job.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chris Farris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/21/2008 at 11:15
Originally posted by Texas Texas wrote:

I don't see the Kahles Helia CS on this list or the 2007 version.  I have a CL yet to be mounted, and it seems wonderful looking through it comparing to my Leupolds.  But, since I ordered a CS of the Sample List yesterday, I am left wondering how it rates relative to the CL line?  I expect the CS to be delivered tomorrow so I can compare myself - but I want to know what those with more experience think also.
 
Thanks to Chris for the new ratings list, and thanks for hosting this board, because I get a lot from reading it daily.  I think it may be addictive!
 
Tom
 
Kahles is kinda confusing with their models.  The CS is the same as the C with the addition of the MultiZero feature.  The CBX (also not on the list) is the same as the CSX except in FFP (first focal plane).  I left them both off in an attempt to make the list less cluttered.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chris Farris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/21/2008 at 11:32
Originally posted by turkeytalker turkeytalker wrote:

Are these optics exclusively the 2008 models or are they mixed, ie Millett has a new scope generation, but they still have the Gold, silver, and lightning models?
 
How's the Burris Timberline look, especially with the 32mm objective?  Looks like the Short Mag under a new label, but with a good price.
 
The list is current production not just new products for 2008.
 
The Burris Timberline is the Short Mag but made in the Philippines in the same factory that is making the current Fullfield II line.  We added it beside the Fullfield II under the assumption that they will be of similar quality.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mwyates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/21/2008 at 13:24
What I'd like to see is a scale with separate ratings for each area.  For example, the Kahles CL might be a 9 in optical quality and specifications and a 3 in customer service and special features.  That would be a lot of work but it would be a lot more meaninful.  That way we could evaluate according to our own preferences.  Most of y'all would have optical quality as by far most important, but I'd put it no higher than third, behind durability and specifications.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SAKO75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/21/2008 at 14:49
im sorry but i have owned diavari's with lotutec (2.5-10x50), S&B KLASSIK 3-12x42, Klassik 1.5-6x42, Zenith 1.5-6x42, Diavari 3-9x42 1", fixed 6x42 S&B, and now a Swarovski PH 2.5-10x42...in no way would I rate any above or below the other except the swaro is lighter than most but suffers in eye relief somewhat... optically it is up there with the others and I prefer it to the S&B's...
they all show severe chromatic abberations
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maxdun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/27/2008 at 15:51
    I have been shooting for a number of years but just got into rifles. I would like to take the time to thank this forum and Chris for putting these an order that I can understand and  put to use. Excellent
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote crispycritter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/27/2008 at 22:46
Originally posted by mwyates mwyates wrote:

What I'd like to see is a scale with separate ratings for each area.  For example, the Kahles CL might be a 9 in optical quality and specifications and a 3 in customer service and special features.  That would be a lot of work but it would be a lot more meaninful.  That way we could evaluate according to our own preferences.  Most of y'all would have optical quality as by far most important, but I'd put it no higher than third, behind durability and specifications.
 
 
 
+1
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/29/2008 at 16:08
I'm interested that the Aetec came in higher than the FFII.

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