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pyro6999 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/23/2007 at 07:52
i was just looking over the ball chart at lazzeroni's page and they put right at the bottom these numbers were achieved at 3000 ft using a 27inch barrel and shorter barrels will reduce velocity by 30 to 85 fps per inch of barrel removed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/23/2007 at 08:59

Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

not to try to start anymore conflict but i was asking a buddy of mine who was a marine a few years ago, and i asked him how long do the barrels on the m60 last, he said the only numbers he could tell me for sure is that it takes approxamtely 600-800 rounds consecutively without ever letting go of the trigger to wear out a barrel, i said isnt that more like a warped barrel not a shot out barrel, well yeah but its still wore out, so i find it hard to believe that 1000 is a reliable figure, look at the guys in vietnam, i doubt they got done with a huge firefight and when they got back to camp they all replaced there barrels cause they had shot more than a thousand rounds out of the m-16.maybe i'm overthinking the whole thing but 1000 rounds to me doesnt seem right.

 

There is no such thing as a reliable figure that always applies, because it's all dependent on several variables.  It also depends on what your accuracy needs/expectations are.  For example, short range benchrest cartridges such as the PPC rounds are much easier on barrels, yet BR shooters generally notice a significant loss of competitive accuracy in premium custom barrels after about 2000 rounds.  Give that same rifle with the shot out barrel to the average shooter who's never shot a BR rifle and they'll still shoot the best groups of their lives and be amazed at the accuracy.  It's not at all uncommon to observe significant throat erosion in a magnum rifle after 1000 rounds, but that may or may not be critical depending on the intended use of the rifle.

 

Suffice it to say, a magnum rifle will get much less barrel life than a rifle chambered in a "standard" cartridge, but how much less depends on so many factors that there's no way to come up with a 100% certain "rule of thumb" and even if you did, it may or may not matter, and you may or may not ever reach that magical number in a lifetime of hunting.  I don't shoot my big game hunting rifles anywhere near as much as I do my varmint rifles and rimfires, so it isn't a huge concern to me.

 

Again, every advantage any cartridge ever provides comes at one price or another.  Every equipment decision we make involves a series of tradeoffs.  There is no such thing as any piece of equipment having only advantages and no disadvantages.

 

 

Ted


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/23/2007 at 09:01

Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

i was just looking over the ball chart at lazzeroni's page and they put right at the bottom these numbers were achieved at 3000 ft using a 27inch barrel and shorter barrels will reduce velocity by 30 to 85 fps per inch of barrel removed.

 

50 fps per inch is a good "rule of thumb" for most cartridge/barrel length combinations -- up to a point.

Ted


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/23/2007 at 09:03
im not going to disagree with what you are saying, but i spend equal amounts of time shooting all my guns, cause like you it a fun thing to do!! i spend more time running test loads through my hunting rifles then i do actually hunting, i guess i dont care if there is a magical number now, but i dont want any other calibers to be hyped out of extinction. or people shy away from buying such calibers because of hyped up opinions that's all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lucznik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/23/2007 at 10:39
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

i was just looking over the ball chart at lazzeroni's page and they put right at the bottom these numbers were achieved at 3000 ft using a 27inch barrel and shorter barrels will reduce velocity by 30 to 85 fps per inch of barrel removed.

 

50 fps per inch is a good "rule of thumb" for most cartridge/barrel length combinations -- up to a point.

 

I've mentioned this before but, just to recap:

 

I have a Ruger Compact Rifle in 7-08 that I recently chronographed with 154 and 120 gr. bullets.  The 154s showed an average loss of a total of about 75 fps from published velocities.  The 120s showed an average loss of a total of only about 90 fps from published velocities.  This is despite the fact that there is 9.5 inches of barrel "loss" with this rifle. (It has a 16.5" barrel and published figures were from a 26" test barrel.) These velocities were acheived without exceeding maximum published loads and without any signs of excessive pressure.

 

That comes to a average loss of 7.9 fps/inch for the 154s and about 9.5 fps/inch for the 120s.  This experience has led me to throw out all "rules of thumb" in favor of chronographing all new loads.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/23/2007 at 10:40

Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

...but i dont want any other calibers to be hyped out of extinction. or people shy away from buying such calibers because of hyped up opinions that's all.

 

Understand, but it's also important to let people know the truth so they can decide what's best for them.  Anytime you increase powder charge and velocity, the price you pay is shorter barrel life.  There's just no way around that fact.  Whether or not barrel life becomes an issue depends on so many factors that it has to be weighed on a case by case basis, but it's important to be aware of it.  Any barrel begins to slowly wear out from the very first shot you fire.  I think it's the responsible thing to do whenever advising people on rifle and caliber choices to let them know both the pros and cons up front.  Every single equipment choice you ever make involves both pros and cons.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/23/2007 at 10:50
i can agree to that but to put the barrel burner label on something isnt a fair assumption, some people not me but some people if a barrel lasted them there whole life and never reached a shot out point then is it a barrel burner?? i know i am just being difficult, but to each person it could mean something else, to a person who shoots pdogs a lot it might mean a new barrel every couple of months or some casual shooter maybe never. but to point out certain cases as barrel burners is not a fair assumption, you could call anything out there a barrel burner then. just how much time do you have.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lucznik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/23/2007 at 10:53

Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

not to try to start anymore conflict but i was asking a buddy of mine who was a marine a few years ago, and i asked him how long do the barrels on the m60 last, he said the only numbers he could tell me for sure is that it takes approxamtely 600-800 rounds consecutively without ever letting go of the trigger to wear out a barrel, i said isnt that more like a warped barrel not a shot out barrel, well yeah but its still wore out, so i find it hard to believe that 1000 is a reliable figure, look at the guys in vietnam, i doubt they got done with a huge firefight and when they got back to camp they all replaced there barrels cause they had shot more than a thousand rounds out of the m-16.maybe i'm overthinking the whole thing but 1000 rounds to me doesnt seem right.

 

There are two fundemental flaws in your example which should be noted:

 

  1. Your example is based on military use of automatic weapons in armed conflict as compared to bolt action sporterized firearms capable only of deliberate, aimed fire (not "spray and pray") and which are almost never used "in anger."  These military weapons are not expected to deliver the same kind of accuracy as the bolt action hunting gun - and evern if they were, most conscripts would be incapable of wringing such accuracy out of them.  "Wearing out a barrel" then, has two very different meanings in this case.
  2. Your example is based only on the anecdotal evidence of a single individual who actually disclaims any measured or even carefully thought out or considered knowledge of the question at hand. It further involves the presumed anecdotal evidence of another group of soldiers based on speculation.

I'm not trying to "bust your balls" here but, I just wanted to point out to you why your example doesn't work to explain the phenomena you are trying to understand.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/23/2007 at 11:44
why sure it does, if you dont think that stringing out 800 rounds in one period of time compared to years of less than 100 shots doesnt make sense then you arent getting it, i am saying that with the most possible abuse one could give a barrel it ;asted 800 rounds, tell me why i cant expect a bolt action rifle of any caliber to be able to double the 800 number because it is cleaned and shot at a reasonable pace thats all i am getting at.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/23/2007 at 12:13
pyro6999 has a definate point.  The frequently shot m-16 is suppose to be accurate and is not just used as only a spray and pray gun.  Single shots are often taken and range firing is frequently done, not only to maintain skills, but to check their weapons.  I would not want to be out there with a weapon capable of 10MOA or erratic MOA.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/23/2007 at 12:16
i dont know for sure cause i wasnt there, but the way it sounds to me and from books i have read about vietnam the ak47 was far better with being reliable and accurate.
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/23/2007 at 13:10

Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

i dont know for sure cause i wasnt there, but the way it sounds to me and from books i have read about vietnam the ak47 was far better with being reliable and accurate.

 

Reliable, yes; accurate... no.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/23/2007 at 13:19
the book i am reading right now called we were soldiers once and young, Ia Drang-the battle that changed the war in vietnam bu Lt. Gen. Harold G. Moore they talk about the huey's coming in and bring in new troops and ammo etc and taking the wounded and dead back and forth and the helicopter pilots all said the wounded/dead had head or throut shots, thats why i said that. i have only had limited time with and ak it was fun to shoot.
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375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/23/2007 at 16:04
I have read elsewhere, that while they post 27 inches as their test barrels, they were actually 28.  One of there models is offered in a 27 or 28 inch barrel.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lucznik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/23/2007 at 16:59

Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

...if you dont think that stringing out 800 rounds in one period of time compared to years of less than 100 shots doesnt make sense then you arent getting it 

 

Actually, I understood you just fine.  What I was pointing out to you was that the logic used in your argument is faulty.  You may have come to a correct conclusion but, that's due to mere accident, not good use of logic.

 

Consider for a moment that in the summer (whenever that happens to take place where you live) the quantity of ice cream consumed world-wide increases.  So too, does the number of accidental drownings increase.  One might conclude therefore that ice cream consumption causes drownings and could even graph the occurance and demonstrate the perceived connections.  Said individual would, of course, still be wrong in their logic - even though using it they could correctly predict the increase of both drownings and ice cream consumption into the future.

 

RifleDude explained the concept as related to your question of barrel life very well in an example about benchrest cartridges.  He said: 

Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

] …short range benchrest cartridges such as the PPC rounds are much easier on barrels, yet BR shooters generally notice a significant loss of competitive accuracy in premium custom barrels after about 2000 rounds.  Give that same rifle with the shot out barrel to the average shooter who's never shot a BR rifle and they'll still shoot the best groups of their lives and be amazed at the accuracy.  It's not at all uncommon to observe significant throat erosion in a magnum rifle after 1000 rounds, but that may or may not be critical depending on the intended use of the rifle.

 

The bottom line is that, even though they are all firearms, the basic nature and purposes of these guns are so dramatically different that you cannot use the one as a comparison base for expectations of what you will get from the other.

 

A military grade rifle is generally expected to provide anywhere from 3-4 MOA and still be considered adequate for the needed tasks. Anything else would be considered a bonus.

Today, bolt action hunting rifles are commonly expected to provide somewhere in the 1-1.5 MOA range of accuracy to perform their tasks.

The benchrest gun in RifleDudes example would be expected to shoot well below 0.25 MOA to be considered competitive.

 

Assume a soldier takes a NIB M16 that shoots 2 MOA into battle and burns through 800 rounds.  He may have done considerable "damage" to the barrel but, unless that damage has more than doubled his already fairly large groups, it's still considered an adequate rifle for its intended purpose and would continue to be fielded.

 

Very few hunters and certainly no Benchrest shooter would stand for a doubling of their group sizes, even though in both cases such groups would still be well within the STARTING place for the ideal in military gun accuracy.

 

Barrel burnout is thus a VERY different thing to each of these different categories of shooters, resulting in an unfit basis for comparison.

 

Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

...tell me why i cant expect a bolt action rifle of any caliber to be able to double the 800 number because it is cleaned and shot at a reasonable pace thats all i am getting at.

 

Actually, I never said this.  All I said was that you were using a poor basis of logic for you argument and that this might be contributing to your confusion. I've got a 30+ year old Win M70 in .264 Win Mag that still sports its original factory barrel and continues to print 1/2 MOA groups with the right load.  This cartridge has been "known" for years to be a "barrel burner" but, I just haven't seen any evidence of this at all.

 

Originally posted by dolphin dolphin wrote:

pyro6999 has a definate point.  The frequently shot m-16 is suppose to be accurate and is not just used as only a spray and pray gun.  Single shots are often taken and range firing is frequently done, not only to maintain skills, but to check their weapons.  I would not want to be out there with a weapon capable of 10MOA or erratic MOA.

 

An M16 is accurate.  But, only when compared to other military rifle designs.  They are still expected to produce only 3-4MOA groups to remain within acceptable spec for a battle rifle.  I'm sure that NIB they often are able to do somewhat better than this but still, accuracy is a very subjective concept that is highly dependent upon what other item is being used in the comparison.

 

Of course the various AR rifles that are bought on the consumer market often produce far better accuracy, especially those outfitted with target grade barrels and accessories but, despite similarities in appearance, these are a very different animal from the M16 rifles carried by the various militaries of the world.

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/23/2007 at 18:53
What I was referring to was, how fast the barrel is shot out, before becoming a useless weapon.  I agree with pyro6999, I do not think they are rebarreling their rifles on a frequent basis.  That is the only point I was making.  All semi-autos and autos are not suppose to be as accurate as bolt actions, but pyro6999's point was to that effect, with respect to barrel life.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/23/2007 at 20:01
i am being perfectly logical, i am making a comparison to prove that under the most abusive possible way a barrel will last almost 1000 rounds, so in turn i think i should be able to safely assume a standard hunting rifle when treated in a non abusive way cleaned properly and not shot and shot and shot knowing the barrel is hot, that it should be able to last longer than 800-1000 rounds, if you disagree then you are saying that if i have two sets of tires on two vehicles and i squeel the tires all the time and hot rod around and drive normal on the other set that they would last the same amount of miles, i dont think so kids. in my family we guns that dont even have a value on them cause nobody has sold one in so many years there isnt a value that can be placed on them plus they are wildcats which makes them even more rare, a couple of them can really throw a .224 out there right around 3700-3800 and the last time i read the log on this particular rifle, my grand dad has put approx 1300 rounds through it and was still on the factory barrel, he built his own stock for it to make it a better target rifle he was planning to turn a barrel for it but the damn barrel outlived him.
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"
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