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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/13/2011 at 22:36
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don't forget his buddies and the often quoted guide in Africa....
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/13/2011 at 23:12
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To the original poster:

I will be more than happy to offer my opinion on the scopes you list (I have some familiarity with all of the ones you have there) if you give me a little more information on what you mean by clarity, since it is not an easily measurable parameter.  Also, keep in mind that how clarity is perceived changes considerably with different eyes and different lighting conditions.

Tell me what you are trying to see and under what conditions and I will be more than happy to help out.

ILya
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2011 at 06:44
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Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

Just to play your game for a moment, I have a z6 2x12 and a av 2.5x10 ffp swaro, a 8x32 x56 nf, a 3.5x15 nf, and 2.5 x10 nf. The z6 beats them on any power, under any conditions, which is in contradiction to your findings. What do we do now?. You say this and I say that -- whats the consumer that your trying to help going to do now?


Some suggested I try a z6. I don't have one, but have heard they are better than the z5. It appears you experience verifies what I have heard. How does that condradict what I have stated since I have never even seen a z6?

I do have one question, though. Are you trying to convince me that your z6 with a maximum power of 12X can show more detail than a Nightforce with 32X? That is the kind of performace I am looking for.
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2011 at 07:28
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Whether my experience verifies is immaterial, irrelevant, hearsay, and more of same conjecture. That the z6 would be better, a six year old could deduce from the cost.



The z6 shows more on 12x than the nf on 12x. comparing the z6 on 12x to a NF on 32x is a fools errand. 
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2011 at 07:51
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Originally posted by Rich Coyle Rich Coyle wrote:

  Occationally I have posted that when it gets too dark to see, then it is too dark to see no matter what you are using. That's when some bright fellow suggested I use a flashlight. I mentioned it is illegal to use a flashlight to hunt most animals in Oregon. But I doubt you would admit to reading that kind of post by me.



Since I'm the person who brought up the flashlight during your "pump house test" discussion, I will try to explain this to you once again.  The flashlight point was not literal.  I did not actually suggest you use a flashlight.  It was used solely as an ANALOGY to illustrate a point about light transmission.  I explained that then, but you continued talking about the legality of using flashlights to hunt in Oregon.  The fact you still seem to think that was an actual literal suggestion suggests either my point sailed right over your head, you didn't read what I said, or you're intentionally being obtuse.

Increasing magnification does in fact improve your ability to see detail in low light or for that matter in any light, but only to the extent that there's enough ambient light to enable you to use the additional magnification and the optic is good enough that image quality doesn't suffer severely at the higher power.  It's not an infinite scale where more is always better.  Magnification is only beneficial while there's enough light and optical quality to support it, which almost always requires a larger objective.  At the very fringes of dawn and dusk, at some point light transmission trumps magnification so you actually see more detail by turning down magnification.  The reason is simple.  Increasing magnification increases the optics focal length, and increasing the focal length reduces light transmission through the optic.  Since everything you see is the result of light reflected off objects back to your eyes, reducing the amount of light reaching your eye reduces your ability to see detail.  This is scientific fact.  Since lower magnification increases light transmission through the optic via a larger exit pupil, at some point when it gets sufficiently dark, light transmission wins out over more Xs.
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2011 at 07:56
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Dale and Ted,

If those last two posts don't get the points across, none will.
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2011 at 08:55
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All he wants to do is argue.

Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2011 at 09:22
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I don't know how else to say it, the plural of anecdote is not data.


Space weazel, see what you did?  See what you did!


Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2011 at 11:49
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I'm ready for round 6. Get Your Popcorn Ready
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2011 at 14:12
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These Rich Coyle threads remind me of...
 
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2011 at 16:19
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Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

Whether my experience verifies is immaterial, irrelevant, hearsay, and more of same conjecture. That the z6 would be better, a six year old could deduce from the cost.



The z6 shows more on 12x than the nf on 12x. comparing the z6 on 12x to a NF on 32x is a fools errand. 


I can see by the second sentense that you beleive you get what you pay for. I hve discovered and proven to those who will take time to look through my Nightforce, Swaropvski z5 and Bushnell 6500 side by side in normal daylight that the most expensive comes in last with the three mentioned. Any six year old who looks through them will deduce from the experience that you get what you shop for.

When you are looking for detail you leave you Nightforce 32X at home? Why have the higher magnification scope? I think you are in a minority here and in the hunting fields. When I compared the above scopes in normal day light looking at the line chart 521 yards away the Nightforce required 12X. The Bushnell 15 1/2X and the Swarovski required 16 1/2X. For me it is not a fool's errand to know which is the best for seeing detail.
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2011 at 16:23
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Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:



Increasing magnification does in fact improve your ability to see detail
in low light or for that matter in any light, but only to the extent
that there's enough ambient light to enable you to use the additional
magnification and the optic is good enough that image quality doesn't suffer severely at the higher power. 


I have maintained this from the beginning. Those who want to find fault prefer to disregaurd that tid bit of info from my posts.
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2011 at 16:54
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Rich why do you keep trying to push this in topic after topic after topic?  We have all argued against you every single time you do this. 

Seriously what is the point of this?  We will never agree with what you are tying to push.

I am seriously asking, what do you think you are accomplishing here?
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2011 at 16:57
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Originally posted by Rich Coyle Rich Coyle wrote:

Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:



Increasing magnification does in fact improve your ability to see detail
in low light or for that matter in any light, but only to the extent
that there's enough ambient light to enable you to use the additional
magnification and the optic is good enough that image quality doesn't suffer severely at the higher power. 


I have maintained this from the beginning. Those who want to find fault prefer to disregaurd that tid bit of info from my posts.



Really Rich, where have you maintained that since you've been here? Where is that "tid bit"? Your friends and any little kid can see that you get"what you shop for" Yet, your observations are contrary to what the vast majority of optics users post here.
You have not mentioned, where I have perused your past posts, that higher power is still better in low light once you get smaller than the exit pupil with magnification increase.
Once again you want to speak of 15 1/2X with brand X and 161/2X with brand Y.
It just won't stop with you in your little world. You just want to argue.
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2011 at 17:04
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Originally posted by Rich Coyle Rich Coyle wrote:


When you are looking for detail you leave you Nightforce 32X at home? Why have the higher magnification scope? I think you are in a minority here and in the hunting fields. When I compared the above scopes in normal day light looking at the line chart 521 yards away the Nightforce required 12X. The Bushnell 15 1/2X and the Swarovski required 16 1/2X. For me it is not a fool's errand to know which is the best for seeing detail.


you completely missed the point of what he said.  either your reading comprehension is very poor or you are purposely being obtuse, as someone else said.



i realize this is an argument that has gone on for a while between rich and several other members.  it's obvious that rich either doesn't understand how his personal circumstances invalidate his opinions from what most people coming to this site are looking for, or he is genuinely and blissfully unaware of how inaccurate his arguments are. 

in either case, what's the point, other than 1 post to educate anyone reading his posts, that he has a somewhat unique outlook on optics that is in complete opposition to what the other contributors to this message board beleive.  and that in most cases his "facts" or "objectivity" is in fact opinion and conjecture.
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2011 at 17:16
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Originally posted by Rich Coyle Rich Coyle wrote:



When you are looking for detail you leave you Nightforce 32X at home? Why have the higher magnification scope? I think you are in a minority here and in the hunting fields.


You are in the minority Rich.  Most big game hunters do not use hubble telescopes as hunting scopes.  Why do you think 3-9x scopes (and similar mag ranges) are the most popular hunting scopes.  Bright, low powered, lighter weight, scopes are popular for a reason. 
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2011 at 17:30
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2011 at 17:39
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 Laugh Above  
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2011 at 18:04
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If you guys have had enough let me know cause the Rich Coyle Show is coming to an end.
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2011 at 18:12
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Originally posted by Roy Finn Roy Finn wrote:

If you guys have had enough let me know cause the Rich Coyle Show is coming to an end.



Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2011 at 18:20
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"My goal here is to try and create a anecdotal ranking to help people make better informed decisions, I would like to hear from people who have used these scopes so that we can be as realistic as possible, Please rank the scopes you have used as to their visual clarity as a whole, and to make it a little easier, on a 1-10 scale graduated in .25 points"

I am curious how many of you folks who have come on the attack have posted your scopes according to the original poster's request. I cooperated. What is the benifit of your posts if you didn't?
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2011 at 18:25
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Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:


Originally posted by Rich Coyle Rich Coyle wrote:

[QUOTE=RifleDude]

Increasing magnification does in fact improve your ability to see detail
in low light or for that matter in any light, but only to the extent
that there's enough ambient light to enable you to use the additional
magnification and the optic is good enough that image quality doesn't suffer severely at the higher power. 


I have maintained this from the beginning. Those who want to find fault prefer to disregaurd that tid bit of info from my posts.
Really Rich, where have you maintained that since you've been here? QUOTE]

If you check you will find that I posted when it gets too dark to see, it is too dark to see no matter what scope you are using. For some that is later or earlier than for others.

What does this have to do with the original poster's request. After all he did write "anicdotal". No where did he request that some of the poster go on the attack of any of the other posters.
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2011 at 18:36
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Originally posted by Rich Coyle Rich Coyle wrote:


If you check you will find that I posted when it gets too dark to see, it is too dark to see no matter what scope you are using. For some that is later or earlier than for others.





Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2011 at 18:39
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[QUOTE=Rich Coyle]

If you check you will find that I posted when it gets too dark to see, it is too dark to see no matter what scope you are using. For some that is later or earlier than for others.

[QUOTE]



Rich, you MUST be able to see that the second sentence directly contradicts the first.

Well I am done with this thread.

Thanks a lot space_weazel!  Whacko




Edited by Bitterroot Bulls - June/14/2011 at 18:40
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2011 at 19:21
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Originally posted by Bitterroot Bulls Bitterroot Bulls wrote:



[QUOTE=Rich Coyle]

If you check you will find that I posted when it gets too dark to see, it is too dark to see no matter what scope you are using. For some that is later or earlier than for others.

[QUOTE]



Rich, you MUST be able to see that the second sentence directly contradicts the first.

Well I am done with this thread.

Thanks a lot space_weazel!  Whacko


Do you think everyone sees the same. Some folks can see when it is too dark for most of us. Others can't see well soon after the sun sets. Where's the contradiction?
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