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Lab Radar |
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nralifer
Optics Apprentice Joined: July/26/2016 Status: Offline Points: 165 |
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Posted: September/22/2016 at 07:12 |
Anyone out there have experience with the Lab Radar? Trigger 29 and I had a chance to use one this last weekend. We could track a 30 cal bullet as far as 110 yds. I was a real quick way to measure bullet BCs as well.
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It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. TR
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RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
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No experience with it, but I'm intrigued by the topic and interested in hearing your findings.
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Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
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Peddler
Optics God Joined: July/04/2012 Location: Oswego,NY Status: Offline Points: 13526 |
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Is Hornady's claim of Doppler radar for their new bullets similar to that?
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When you are dead, you don't know you are dead.It is difficult only for others.
It is the same when you are stupid. |
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nralifer
Optics Apprentice Joined: July/26/2016 Status: Offline Points: 165 |
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We are going to play with it again this weekend. I can tell you that it is an intriguing instrument. We did have some trouble tracking each shot the same distance. I think this has due to with the bullet trajectory. We were shooting at a gong 500 yds away and were able to track 2-3 shots out of 5. When the target was at 100 yds 90+% of the shots tracked. So if the bullet stays in the beam it tracks. There are also a couple of ways to trigger it. We used the microphone. Using that mode we could trigger it with, not only the muzzle blast, but also with the crack of the bullet as it passed the radar. For that experiment we placed the radar behind the gong to protect it and shot from 150 yds such that the bullet passed within 4-5 inches from the gong edge. It tracked 2 out of three shots to 100 yds. One can calculate BCs on any bullet with the data since it will measure 5 velocities as it tracks the bullet.
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It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. TR
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nralifer
Optics Apprentice Joined: July/26/2016 Status: Offline Points: 165 |
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The Hornady Doppler is much more powerful and sophisticated but both radars work on the same principle. Hornady's radar can track bullets to hundreds of yards and generate a velocity decay curve since it can measure velocities at much smaller intervals. It was through the analysis of these decay curves that they were able to surmise that their tips were melting presumably
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It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. TR
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Peddler
Optics God Joined: July/04/2012 Location: Oswego,NY Status: Offline Points: 13526 |
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Presumably being the key word i suppose.
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When you are dead, you don't know you are dead.It is difficult only for others.
It is the same when you are stupid. |
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trigger29
Optics Master Extraordinaire X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ? Joined: September/29/2007 Location: South Dakota Status: Offline Points: 4353 |
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"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." |
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nralifer
Optics Apprentice Joined: July/26/2016 Status: Offline Points: 165 |
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It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. TR
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Kickboxer
MODERATOR Moderator Joined: February/13/2008 Status: Offline Points: 23679 |
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Bryan Litz is "the man" in ballistics... http://appliedballisticsllc.com/Truth%20In%20Performance/Hornady4DOF.pdf I pay close attention to his cautions. http://www.scout.com/military/snipers-hide/forums/5542-ballistics/13788862-labradar-testing Edited by Kickboxer - September/23/2016 at 06:12 |
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trigger29
Optics Master Extraordinaire X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ? Joined: September/29/2007 Location: South Dakota Status: Offline Points: 4353 |
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I will agree that Bryan Litz is "the man" when it comes to ballistics, so long as Berger bullets aren't involved. He knows who signs his pay check. We've found some discrepancies in our testing with several bullet's BCs, from several different manufacturers. These discrepancies seem to correlate with the data listed in Litz's book "Ballistic Performance of Rifle Bullets". Unless a Berger bullet happens to be involved. Seems their bullets always have the highest listed BC. And it also seems we can't achieve the numbers he lists. It seems we're not the only ones who have discovered this in actual instrumented tests. This test done by KNS ballistic services found the .338 Hybrid to have a BC of .766 vs. the .816 they claim. all the other data they got on other bullets correlates with Litz's data except the Berger bullet. http://www.scout.com/military/snipers-hide/story/1454719-gunsite-xlr-338-bullet-test As far as his testing of the Labradar, after his last update, it seems he's very happy with the results he's gotten from it, and it's showing itself to be very accurate. In our limited testing of it so far, we've found the same, and actually used it to do some limited BC calculations on bullets that we know the BC on, and found it to accurately calculate BC within reasonable accuracy levels. We're going to do more testing with 2 radar units to try to verify BCs over a longer range. Will update when we have more results. |
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"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." |
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Steelbenz
Optics Jedi Knight ROLL TIDE ROLL Joined: January/03/2006 Location: Heart of Dixie Status: Offline Points: 5153 |
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As an old FireControlman, I'll give you the standard tracker alley saying! "In God we trust, ALL others we track!" My father's favorite saying was "Liars know numbers son, but numbers don't lie! Do the math!
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"Don't argue with a fool! From a distance you can't really tell who's who!"
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Kickboxer
MODERATOR Moderator Joined: February/13/2008 Status: Offline Points: 23679 |
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You know, I have no hero worship of Bryan Litz, neither do I have a problem with KNS. Any competitor in business has to try to find a way to make his product stand out. Bryan Litz does demonstrate very high numbers for Berger products... but, could be his test articles are produced with more care than what can be obtained via normal channels. There are a number of possible explanations for Litz's numbers vs KNS. One is that he has access to the very best product Berger produces... may not be exactly representative of "off the assembly line". Differing conditions, controls, test articles, test personnel,etc. He also has had access to some of the very finest radars used for ballistic calculations. I don't know whether his results come from the fact that "he knows where his paycheck comes from" or not. But I know that his methods, as described, are sound and his "math" is true. I won't be the one to accuse him of fudging the data... I started thinking of getting the Lab Radar as soon as it came out... fulfills a number of requirements for me even in its current state. But I've been waiting until the product matched the available technology. Oftentimes, what is available to the public is several generations behind what is available technologically. I believe they are on Gen III now. More to come. Certainly Mr Litz wants to sell his products, personal and Berger, so do other companies... There was never an intention to say the stuff was not good, just some caution in observation should be exercised. Perhaps the concept was too lofty... As for the Lab Radar, certainly a device that provides an accuracy and simplicity that has been long needed and unattained... my point in the articles was: "For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearances, as though they were realities, and are often more influenced by the things that seem than the things that are." Machiavelli Caveat emptor.
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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.
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nralifer
Optics Apprentice Joined: July/26/2016 Status: Offline Points: 165 |
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Two very good links by Kickboxer. Our initial test did not involve a direct comparison to the Oehler 35, although in all our other BC testing the Oehler was used to measure the muzzle velocity. We used the radar to determine the muzzle velocity and used our usual 2 radio set up and Audacity waveform software to measure time of flight. Doing this we were able to calculate 2 BCs for each shot, one from the radar data alone and the other from the time of flight data to a gong target 500 yds away. The average BC calculated for each shot that we had a full set of data correlated with each other to less than 2%. The tracking with the radar was a bit problematic when shooting at a 500 yd target, but when shooting at a 100 yd target it tracked much more reliably suggesting that the bullet trajectory seen in the long target shots probably caused the bullet to be at the very edge of the radar beam and not track as well. We were testing 308 and 338 caliber bullets with boat tails whose bases were flat, so did not have the problem Litz saw with the concave based FMJ .224 cal bullets. Of note is that the microphone in the radar was used as the trigger for the radar.
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It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. TR
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Kickboxer
MODERATOR Moderator Joined: February/13/2008 Status: Offline Points: 23679 |
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That is pretty impressive. We use microphones as triggers as well. Funny, we found that "better" is not always "best". We had to actually decrease the quality of microphone in order to get the most accurate triggers. Best results have come from a $2.00 Walmart microphone. |
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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.
There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living |
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nralifer
Optics Apprentice Joined: July/26/2016 Status: Offline Points: 165 |
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We did more testing with the radar yesterday This time under different conditions and using an SD card. I think an SD card will become a regular part of our testing. We used the radar at the gun club instead of an open field. There was more "clutter" down range at the club because of wind flags and berms at 100 yds. The 100 yd range is next to a 200 yd rage that has a double berm, the lower one with a target backboard at 185 yds which is where we mounted targets. The BC results we were getting were all over the place, and when we looked at the data on the SD card we could see why. The radar is capable, with the SD card, to give a velocity at almost every yard of bullet travel, and display the data on an Exel spread sheet. So if you see your bullet actually at some point accelerating you know the data is funky. We think the problem was all the clutter down range. Hopefully next week we will be able to get back to more open country with no clutter. On shots where the tracking data looked clean (consistently lower velocity with each yard of bullet travel) the BC calculated seemed plausible both for sour bullets and factory.
Another observation is that the radar will not trigger using the internal microphone if you shoot with a suppressor. Have to trigger it using the Doppler signal itself. Wonder if Kickboxer might have some thoughts on using an external microphone as a trigger for suppressed rifles. A microphone triggering mechanism may be more accurate than the Doppler as one does not always know at what distance down range the signal from the bullet triggers the radar. One good thing though the radar was not triggered by other people shooting. Oner people were either shooting pistols or 223 ARs. So there is a bit of a learning curve, but once one learns how to use it properly the radar should be very handy.
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It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. TR
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Kickboxer
MODERATOR Moderator Joined: February/13/2008 Status: Offline Points: 23679 |
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We use the external microphone for all our triggers... found it to be much more accurate and repeatable. You will have to do some experimentation to find the proper angle for maximum trigger effects for you in your environment. It is easier for us, now, since we mostly use same place/configuration, but still have to perform a calibration every time. You are experiencing both clutter and multipath to introduce the effects you describe. It never goes completely away... maybe at high altitudes or in space. Multipath can create some very odd effects. What you are most likely seeing that appears to be an acceleration at the wrong place in time is a signal late arrival due to multipath. It can be very frustrating. |
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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.
There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living |
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Kickboxer
MODERATOR Moderator Joined: February/13/2008 Status: Offline Points: 23679 |
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I read through the manual. Setup of a radar device can be critical. I would have to do some experimentation with the system to determine root cause of your "issue", but the below information indicates you could certainly be getting some "stray" signals injected into your data stream: |
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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.
There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living |
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nralifer
Optics Apprentice Joined: July/26/2016 Status: Offline Points: 165 |
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Thanks Kickboxer for such a thoughtful response. Really is helpful. I think the problem was a flag close to the bullet trajectory. The multipath phenomenon is an interesting. Does a metal gong placed beyond 100 yd potentially interfere with the signal quality?
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It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. TR
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Kickboxer
MODERATOR Moderator Joined: February/13/2008 Status: Offline Points: 23679 |
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Anything in the field of view of the radar could create a false reading. I don't know anything about rejection algorithms of the Lab Radar, but suspect, if they exist, they are not highly complex... cost would be prohibitive.
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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.
There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living |
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Bigdaddy0381
MODERATOR Georgia peach Joined: February/27/2007 Location: Georgia Status: Offline Points: 13680 |
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I used a lab radar at one of my matches. It was spot on with what my other velocity meters have told me. I kinda liked it, and thought about getting one.
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