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Low-Light Performance Calculator

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/14/2008 at 18:34
supertool73 View Drop Down
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I don't think Tom (Gunshow) is trying to pick a fight, he just wants to make sure all details are in fact correct.  Regardless of the debate, this has been very educational for me and probably wouldn't have been near as good without the debate.  Good job guys.   

My low light tests consists of this.  If it is under $200 don't bother.  $200-$600 use mostly as a day scope.  $600-$1000 morning and evening time is going to be looking pretty good.  $1000+ watch out animals I am shooting you know matter what time it is.  Big%20Smile
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/14/2008 at 18:46
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All right, since cheaptrick has landed I feel that I should intervene before he goes ballistic (againFurious).

A couple of points:
1) Gentlemen, we have to learn to disagree in a civilized manner (or I will let loose THE cheaptrick)

2) I have not really looked into the technical details of the argument.  There are two reasons for that: there was a bunch of stuff linked that I did not have time to read thoroughly and, for my purposes, this calculator is not really useful since I mostly compare different brands and designs to each other.  When I have time, I will dig into it a little more.

As a possible suggestion to opticsmike, have you considered writing a proper white paper/application note on what your calculator is doing and why?  By referring to a bunch of different sources without a reasonably coherent and verbose explanation of what you are actually doing, you are making sure that none really understands what you are up to except for someone hell bent on proving you wrong.

For example, I have some fairly relevant background in this stuff, and without spending some time on this, I do not find what you are doing here at all clear.  See if you can come up with a way to explain it to a person without an optics background.

To gunshow75, if you disagree with someone, try to do it in a nice way.  When you write a reply that gets you all emotional, try re-reading it a time or two before you hit the "Post" button.  I do not recall what you do for a living, but I remember when I spent a lot of time in an academic environment, being rude and obnoxious was an absolute norm.  Having several scientists in the same room was akin to watching several spiders in a glass jar: only one was going to come out alive.  Out in the real world, politeness is a virtue, you are not dealing with E here after all.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/14/2008 at 19:58
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I'm sorry that I don't meet your expectations for being nice, for being polite. I really do read my posts before I hit send.

You can find what I do in my profile, and I still work. I am not now in an academic environment, but I was for the better part of 20 years. Being rude and obnoxious was not the norm.





Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/14/2008 at 20:43
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Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

I don't think Tom (Gunshow) is trying to pick a fight, he just wants to make sure all details are in fact correct.  Regardless of the debate, this has been very educational for me and probably wouldn't have been near as good without the debate.  Good job guys.   

My low light tests consists of this.  If it is under $200 don't bother.  $200-$600 use mostly as a day scope.  $600-$1000 morning and evening time is going to be looking pretty good.  $1000+ watch out animals I am shooting you know matter what time it is.  Big%20Smile


Thunbs%20Up ST, you put it all into terms a lot of us understand and that is exactly how it works for me. There is a ton of info here on this thread and it is a good one. I hope it continues.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/14/2008 at 20:59
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I have PM'd both opticsmike and Gunshow on different topics and they are both very helpful friendly guys.  I think we're aiming for the same end but with differing views on how to get there.  I really appreciate the effort that OM has put into this and if the end product can be made better by input from Gunshow and Ilya well that's even better.
 
Like tahqua I hope the dialogue can continue in a positive light.  Don't need hurt feelings or egos getting in the way - we are all friends here!  Let us know if/how we can help.
 
Craig
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/14/2008 at 21:29
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Just as an addendum, I never said that people have to be nice, just politeCencored.
Heck, if I claimed that we all have to be nice here, I would have to go back and erase 90% of my own posts.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/14/2008 at 21:53
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In all actuality, the calculator is very simple. Unfortunately the discussions kept getting off on tangents that kept making it more confusing than it needs to be, and the tone has been even more distracting. I will definitely write up a white paper that explains it in clear terms and I look forward to answering questions and working with like-minded people to make this an easy to understand and beneficial tool. Keep in mind that the usefulness is limited to providing an idea of how much a certain scope configuration will perform over another of the same optical quality, but it is much more useful than anything else we have. The usefulness could of course become pretty amazing if a standard measuring method was utilized for light transmission, resolution, and maybe even contrast. But even then, scopes can vary in optical quality among even the same exact model. But right now as it stands, supertool73's model is much more accurate for anyone wishing to compare scopes among different brands, or better yet, reading the helpful information from eveyone here and asking questions.

The white paper will outline four steps to the calculation that must be understood progressively:

1. Theoretical Light Gain that the scope delivers to the eye pupil.

2. Realistic Light Gain that the scope delivers to the eye pupil.

3. Conversion of Realistic Light Gain to a brightness scale that human beings can relate to.

4. Overall Low Light Performance as a combination of human-perceived light gain and resolution gain.

After writing the white paper, I will modify it to better suit it's ability to answer questions as they come. I also hope that once it is thoroughly understood, some useful contributions could be made by others. Thanks for your support everyone. I look forward to doing everything I can to provide something that is truly useful. Believe me I have much better things to be doing if I didn't believe it to be possible for this to become useful for everyone.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/14/2008 at 21:56
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Excellent.  Please post you write-up when you are done with it.

I have three reviews I need to finish before I can spend any real time on this, so I won't get to dig through this fro a little bit.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2008 at 05:54
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WHAT...NO MORE MISSION?!?!? Loco
 
See ya'll back at the NCO club!! Smile  Drinks are on Optics Mike and Gunshow Wink
 
 
   
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2008 at 06:05
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Just as an addendum, I never said that people have to be nice, just polite ...


"...To gunshow75, if you disagree with someone, try to do it in a nice way. ... Out in the real world, politeness is a virtue, you are not dealing with E here after all."

I took those comments to mean that I wasn't being nice, or polite.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2008 at 07:11
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Gentlemen, please note that knowledge and confidence often can lead to egotistic behavior. Those whom you are trying to help will be turned off by this and at that point what you are doing will then be for your own pleasure and bragging rights. By keeping things in a non-confrontational format, all will be more likely to benefit from it.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2008 at 07:57
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Bandito  can we all attack supertool's chart now??    ( What a moron he is!!!!..........)  Laugh
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2008 at 08:23
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What???  My chart is awesome.  It took me like 10 minutes to come up with that.  Ed, I thought we were friends.  Mooner
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2008 at 08:30
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" Well. if I ss-spent six hundred bucks on a scope, Bub, I'd wanna be able to see in the deep woods-sh at s-sundown and see Ann Sheridan sunbathing by moonlight in her pajamasss!! "                                                                                     
 
                                                                                                    Ann Sheridan
 
               


Edited by Ed Connelly - October/15/2008 at 08:37
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2008 at 09:04
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Good luck with that.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2008 at 09:14
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Originally posted by Gunshow75 Gunshow75 wrote:

Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Just as an addendum, I never said that people have to be nice, just polite ...


"...To gunshow75, if you disagree with someone, try to do it in a nice way. ... Out in the real world, politeness is a virtue, you are not dealing with E here after all."

I took those comments to mean that I wasn't being nice, or polite.
 
It isn't THAT you disagree - its HOW you go about it!  Gee wiz, this ain't rocket science, its what we learned in kindergarden!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2008 at 12:10
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Tip, I think you misunderstood my intent in the post. It was my way of explaining why I made my comment about nice and polite. I was not trying to be confrontational. I like and have great respect for Koshkin.

I wish I was more tactful, but since I'll soon be 66, it isn't likely that I will change. I can only reassure the members of the forum that while I might sound like an arrogant you-know-what, I'm really not. It is never my intent to be mean spirited.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2008 at 12:14
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I know that your not arrogant Tom, sometimes things just sound different when interpreted through a keyboard!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2008 at 12:22
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Originally posted by Dogger Dogger wrote:

I know that your not arrogant Tom, sometimes things just sound different when interpreted through a keyboard!


This can be so true with emails and such.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2008 at 12:40
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Originally posted by mike650 mike650 wrote:

Originally posted by Dogger Dogger wrote:

I know that your not arrogant Tom, sometimes things just sound different when interpreted through a keyboard!


This can be so true with emails and such.


ARE.................. YOU SAYING............... IF I TYPE........... IN ALL CAPS WITH LOTS OF THIS CRAP....................!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????????  IT IS POOR............ONLINE..........EDICATE???????  Man who knew!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Edited by supertool73 - October/15/2008 at 12:41
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2008 at 12:45
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COME ON SUPERTOOL DON"T BE JERKIN' ME AROUND!!!!!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2008 at 12:47
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SORRY..............SOMETHING...............NEW................I
JUST......................LEARNED
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2008 at 12:52
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Gentlemen, I know this thread has gone off topic and I am partially responsible for it, but now that it has been verified (and re-verified)that noone meant any harm and we are all here to learn, let's stick to the topic of low-light scope performance.

So far, the conclusions seem to be the following:

1) Gunshow75 meant no harm and was just trying to help (in all fairness he does know a lot about the subject and has much to contribute)
2) Opticsmike will go back to the drawing board for a little bit and try to write a detailed white paper/application note on what he is doing here.

Once he does that, it will be easier to dispute his methods or to make suggestions on how to improve them.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2008 at 12:58
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I'm curious how it will take the affect of coatings into consideration. Glass quality, and optical design also.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2008 at 13:21
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Originally posted by cyborg cyborg wrote:

I'm curious how it will take the affect of coatings into consideration. Glass quality, and optical design also.


I think that is a big key right there.  That is why my extremely simple scale should work. Big%20Grin
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