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New cartridge designs, belted vs. non-belted

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/27/2007 at 08:10
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Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

when we think of terms like flame front, it is typcially something like the flame you would see sitting around the campfire, but its not-- its a condition of vibration at a very high frequency, and this vibration has the ability to make the bonds in the molecules vibrate much faster than usual, past a condition called the activation energy and this vibration breaks the bonds and allows the individual molecules to cascade down an energy scale. The "flame" that is observed is the atom's electron coming back down from the activation as releasing photons in the process in the range of electromagnetic energy we call light. This shock wave has all the properties of traveling waves, amplitude, phase, frequency, and wavelength and as such they can be "manipulated".
shorter barrels and wsm are good, but the bigger question is what does any improvement mean in a device that is antiquated. ie bolt actions. In this regard i think it is a marketing scheme, my big complaint is one less round in the mag. The nature of the scheme, or with all the long mags in the distribution system ensures their longevity. Not to knock weatherbys -- but do you see any other manufacturers making rifles with their rounds? Personally my next project in this area is a wsm in 7mm AR10 with a carbon fiber barrel, from christensen.
There are plenty of rifle makers that chamber their guns in Wby. calibers, specifically the 300.  Making a remark like that, is like saying, how many American rifle makers  chamber their rifles for the multiple metric cartridges which are very good.  Also, lets not all excited about this molecular bs.




The .300 Wby has been a classic American caliber for some time. I believe the Remington 700 Classic even came in it.
I love all this science and it excites me Wink
I agree, I am sure you read my following post.  Good point about the Rem. 700, one of my favorites too.  I have a BDL deluxe in a 375 Rem. Ultra Mag..  Never been shot.  I cannot afford to shoot it.  It may accompany me to another continent one day.  You never know.  Would prefer a CRF, but thousands have used pre-64 Wins., Rem. 700s and Wbys. over there, so what the heck.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2008 at 21:21
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Here's a sweet 300 WBY.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2008 at 21:34
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I have a Browning Stainless Stalker in 300 RUM --cool piece and found it for $499 new a few years back so I couldn't so no..I like it- shoots any weight bullet well, but has an affinity for 180gr Scirocco's ...but I gotta admit-it just doesn't quite equal the appeal  for me of the classic MKV in 300 Weatherby . As you can see-
 
 


Edited by martin3175 - January/01/2008 at 22:01
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/06/2008 at 08:49
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Nice rifles martin.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/2008 at 10:52
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And BTW I don't know who is f-ing with folks avatars but it is rather childish don't you think? Kinda like hiding in a private forum.......
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/2008 at 10:54
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Originally posted by mogambo mogambo wrote:

And BTW I don't know who is f-ing with folks avatars but it is rather childish don't you think? Kinda like hiding in a private forum.......
 Did somebody change yours?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/2008 at 10:59
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Originally posted by mogambo mogambo wrote:

And BTW I don't know who is f-ing with folks avatars but it is rather childish don't you think? Kinda like hiding in a private forum.......
That's interesting.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/2008 at 11:06
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Originally posted by mogambo mogambo wrote:

And BTW I don't know who is f-ing with folks avatars but it is rather childish don't you think? Kinda like hiding in a private forum.......
 
...or like, perhaps, say... hiding one's identity behind multiple usernames?Wink
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/2008 at 11:08
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i dont get it, who has multiple usernames??
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/2008 at 11:10
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Very nice, Martin. BTW, I've never used those cartridge carriers. How are they?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/2008 at 11:12
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i have one and i used it with my 30-06 i should put it on my .280, they make different sizes of course for magnums but they are nice
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/2008 at 17:36
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Yeah -- they work pretty good. Just remember to pull them off wood stocks when they get wet. My only issue is that I shoot left and right handed about 50/50 ( even with bolt actions ) , and when  left handed if some shells are in it I sometimes take a punch to the cheek. I was taught, despite being a righty, to shoot left handed because I am left eye dominant, but after getting whacked with hot shells out of an Ak or burnt by primers on my Zuave, I taught myselff to shoot right handed.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/2008 at 18:04
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Hes probably talking about Squeezes changing avatar. Actually I don't care for mogambos avatar myself, kinda gothic and wonky.....

Those cartridge carriers can do a job on wood stocks as mentioned already.I kind of like the slings that hold a couple cartridges.

Focus

Edited by Focus - January/08/2008 at 18:05
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/2008 at 18:19
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the last page in the jan/feb issue of rifle shooter terry weiland writes and neat article on belted case i will go find the link to it if i can.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/2008 at 19:10
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Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

the last page in the jan/feb issue of rifle shooter terry weiland writes and neat article on belted case i will go find the link to it if i can.
 
I read that article, but with all due respect to Mr. Weiland, I believe his conclusions about the belted/unbelted cases are based on faulty logic and are therefore mostly incorrect.  For example, he cites the short mags as an example of why unbelted cases supposedly don't feed any better than belted cases, but the belt or lack thereof has nothing to do with the occasional feeding issues of the short mags, as previously discussed.  Likewise, he disputes that belted cases have less accuracy potential of unbelted cases, citing as examples that many belted mags are accurate.  While this is true, and no doubt excellent accuracy is obtainable from belted mags, and even 1000 yd competitions have been won with them, that isn't the point.  The cartridges could potentially be EVEN MORE accurate without the belt.  He also claims that the presence of a belt doesn't reduce case capacity.  That's just absurd, because it's obvious case capacity would increase slightly if the case didn't have to step down to form the belt and instead a gradual taper was continued from the 0.532" belt diameter instead of the 0.513" dia immediately in front of the belt. 
 
To his credit, he does make one very valid point though -- the .458 Winchester couldn't exist without a belt.  Unlike the modern, bottleneck belted magnums, the .458 actually needs the belt, as it doesn't have a shoulder.  In this unique example, the belt does provide the advantage of permitting a big bore round with a .458" bullet to work in a "standard" action and still feed from a bolt action magazine, unlike rimmed cartridges of similar design.  Without the belt, it would have necessitated the cartridge be designed using a bottleneck case with a shoulder, requiring a larger diameter receiver ring action like is required for rounds like the .460 Wby. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/2008 at 22:02
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i will disagree with you on some stuff here ted, first off  the reasons that belted magnums arent more popular for competitive shooting is that   they are harder to control because of the recoil generated with the magnums throws the accuracy off, face it a .308 is easier to handle than a 300winmag which makes shooting a smaller group easier, not that  i think any of that matters, but you mention that the case capacity isnt fully taken advantage of, so you loose a grain of capacity because of the belt so what, if it was 10 grains that would be an issue worth noting, but to me i dont see that small area being a great loss the belt is practically at the base of the case any way and the area in question is only .030 worth of tapering. while terry may be over exagerating the whole wsm feeding issue im not so sure about the wssm line i have heard a few guys with them say they have had feeding issues, not that, that really matters in this subject either, and like terry said you take the .375 h&h and bolt it up and tell me that a belted case isnt smooth, it dont get any smoother than that i agree with him there. i maybe all wet, and not know anything but i dont think a lot of the stuff he wrote was that far off base. if i am confused here ted please give me some explanation.

Edited by pyro6999 - January/08/2008 at 22:14
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/09/2008 at 17:26
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Terry Wieland is a well respected journalist who is not only a writer but a world traveled hunter who writes for many publications to include some in Africa, where belted cases got their reputation.  I have not received my copy of this issue.  I think my wife might be throwing them out.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/09/2008 at 17:49
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Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

i will disagree with you on some stuff here ted, first off  the reasons that belted magnums arent more popular for competitive shooting is that   they are harder to control because of the recoil generated with the magnums throws the accuracy off, face it a .308 is easier to handle than a 300winmag which makes shooting a smaller group easier, not that  i think any of that matters, but you mention that the case capacity isnt fully taken advantage of, so you loose a grain of capacity because of the belt so what, if it was 10 grains that would be an issue worth noting, but to me i dont see that small area being a great loss the belt is practically at the base of the case any way and the area in question is only .030 worth of tapering. while terry may be over exagerating the whole wsm feeding issue im not so sure about the wssm line i have heard a few guys with them say they have had feeding issues, not that, that really matters in this subject either, and like terry said you take the .375 h&h and bolt it up and tell me that a belted case isnt smooth, it dont get any smoother than that i agree with him there. i maybe all wet, and not know anything but i dont think a lot of the stuff he wrote was that far off base. if i am confused here ted please give me some explanation.
 
I wasn't arguing for or against the suitability of the belted mags for competition, even though they have been used with varying success in 1000yd competition in the past.  My comments were confined solely to the belt itself, not any other aspect of case design.  Terry's argument that many belted mags are accurate is somehow proof that a belt doesn't hinder accuracy is a silly analogy, because nobody said a belted mag couldn't be accurate, only that headspacing on the shoulder forms a better foundation for accuracy than headspacing on the belt.  Not having the belt is beneficial for potential accuracy, not essential to it.  With an accurate rifle to begin with and all other aspects of the rifle tuned to accuracy, excellent precision can be achieved with a belted case, but the best accuracy is usually obtained by using fireformed cases that headspace on the shoulder instead of the belt, which says the case would be better without the belt than with it.  The difference isn't huge, but it's there, and why have something that isn't beneficial and in fact could detract from accuracy, even if only a tiny bit, if it isn't absolutely necessary for function?  The simple fact is if having a belt on the case helped accuracy any, then all benchrest cartridge designs would be based off belted cases, and they aren't.
 
The case capacity difference between a belted case and the same case without the belt would be be about the same as the difference between a "standard" cartridge and an "improved" version of the same cartridge, which might give you another 100 fps.  I'd hardly call that insignificant.  But, just for argument sake, lets say the difference was miniscule.  There's still a difference, and if the belt is really serving no needed purpose -- which it isn't on any cartridge with a decent shoulder -- then again, why have it there?  It certainly isn't increasing case capacity, right?
 
As for feeding, again, Terry is going off on a tangent with the whole WSM/WSSM analogy, because the occasional feeding problems with them have to do with squeezing fat squatty cases into short actions and absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not the case has a belt.  He was trying to argue that some cases still have problematic feeding without a belt.  While true, if the short mags also had a belt, it would only make matters worse, not better.  His whole premise is a strawman argument that confuses the central point of whether the belt has inherent benefits by comparing cartridge designs of two totally different length: diameter ratios, which is specious reasoning.  You have to compare apples to apples here and not introduce irrelevant variables.  I'm taking nothing from Terry's experience or prowess as a writer, but most of what he said in that article is still dead wrong. 
 
Nobody's saying that a belted case can't feed smoothly, only that all else being equal, not having the belt would improve feeding, even if only slightly.  The .375's smooth feeding is due to its long, slender case with a very slight neck.  That would still be true whether it had a belt or not, but if the same .375 H&H case design did not have the belt, it would be even smoother feeding.  If it weren't for the fact that it was introduced at the same time as cordite powder, which required relatively straight case walls for loading, it wouldn't have had the belt from the beginning. 
 
The belt does not and cannot contribute to feeding smoothness; it can only detract from it, or, at best, have no effect on it at all.  If you take 2 cases of equal dimensions, one with a belt and one without, the one without will feed smoother.  It has to; wouldn't you agree?  The difference may or may not be that detectable, but to say that putting a small ridge on the back of a case yields smoother feeding than having an otherwise identical case with uninterrupted, straight sides would be like arguing that mounting a plasma tv onto the hood of a race car will improve its aerodynamics.
 
Keep in mind in this whole discussion that we're talking very miniscule pros and cons here, most of which is basically irrelevant in a typical hunting rifle.  I'm not arguing that the belt is a huge hindrance to performance, nor am I saying that there is really anything wrong with our popular belted mags from a practical hunting rifle standpoint.  As I've said before, two of my favorite hunting rounds are the 7RM and .300WM.  All I'm saying is that as a design feature, the belt serves no legitimate purpose on a modern bottleneck cartridge, using modern smokeless powders.  Since it serves no purpose, if you are starting from scratch with a new cartridge design, there is absolutely no compelling reason to include it.  The advantages to not having it are admittedly very slight, but nevertheless, they are real in absolute terms.  So, if a manufacturer is creating an entirely new cartridge and isn't constrained by having to use an existing case, why in the world intentionally include a feature that serves no functional purpose? 
 
The only reason the belt exists at all on our popular belted magnums is because their parent case, the .375 H&H had it, and it makes good economical sense to use readily available brass where possible when creating a new cartridge.


Edited by RifleDude - January/09/2008 at 17:55
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/09/2008 at 18:07
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I gotta go with Ted 100% on this debate, hes correct the differences aren't deal breaking but they are differences none the less. Belts don't aid feeding and short mag cartridges have absolutely nothing to do with the belted vs non belted debate. They can feed balky in some actions because they are short and fat.....plain and simple. 284 can be a feeding problem in push feed especially....for the same reason again....short and fat. No new cartridges are being created with belts for a reason, they don't improve anything.......

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/2008 at 08:08
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I hate to jump back into this fray, but here goes.  First Ted your points are reasonable, but I still disagree that belted cases have to be inherently more inaccurate and the reasons pyro stated are why they are not more frequently used on the bench rest circuit.  Second, when properly reloading belted cartridges, we would all do better using Larry Willis' collet die that resizes the neck and just above the belt, so that when loading the chamber into the rifle, it headspaces like it is suppose to, on the belt and shoulder.  Leaving a space between the belt and chamber face is not exactly the safest situation, although given the inherent strength of the belted cartridge, I guess that is why you do not hear about any problems with handloaders, or at least they are not reported.  The obvious reason the belt remains today is that there are zillions of rifles chambered for those cartridges.  But one must ask, why doesn't Wby., Winchester, etc. introduce a cartridge without the belt and rifles chambered to accept these cartridges if they are inherently more accurate and feed better.  I completely understand the reason the belt was first introduced, cordite spaghetti like powder requiring long minimally tapered cartridges and the fact that other cartridges were developed off of the H&H.  But like the 308, there is as either Craig Boddington or Layne Simpson stated in an article on the 257 Wby., there is something mystical about the double radius shoulder of the cartridge that delivers the performance of the cartridge.  Now, whether the belt and the internal associated webbing has anything to do with that, that is another question.  Point being, nobody is coming off of the belt, that builds the belt.  Personally, I think it would be interesting if they would and I would buy a rifle chambered in say a beltless 300 Wby. magnum.  But, I would really like to talk to a cartridge manufacturing engineer, who specializes in belted cartridges and get his view point on the pros and cons and why, from a ballistic, not a marketing standpoint, why they do not come off of the belt.

Edited by Dolphin - January/10/2008 at 08:09
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/2008 at 08:44
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100 fps isnt significant and animal hit at 2800fps vs 2900fps isnt going to know the difference im sorry, now if we were talking about 500fps i might pay a little more attention, ok lets talk about improved vs belted, 280 ack imp is comparable to a 7mag, ok so it is but how hard do you have to push it to make it that way?? the reason they dont make new chamberings with belts is because there isnt any left to make, everything from 240 to 458 has already been made, and look at how many of those belted cases are still around today, a bunch actually pretty much all of them are still in production today can you say that about the .284win?? yeah maybe the belt was kept because it was there from the beginning, so what the gun started with a barrel does that mean its not needed?? i have three belted cased rifles in my collection right now and i wouldnt trade them for the world, and i dont care what any one thinks about them good bad or indifferently they work for me and thats all that matters nobody knows what works best for me than me, this has been an intresting thread men,but like i told dolphin i dont know enough about the mechanical side of cases and the science behind it so i will bow out of this, i feel like my points dont have any hard core proof and i cant explain things to where they make sense so i am out.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/2008 at 09:25
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List one actual improvement that belted cartridges provide over non-belteds. Are they more accurate? Do they feed better? Are they ballistically superior? Or are they just loved and revered because they are mystically different? If the same loading was available in a given cartridge both belted and non belted....I would opt for the non belted version every time, there is no advantage to the belt in any caliber I desire.

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good for you, i will keep my belted and non belted cases and be happy too. are there any ballistic gains from having a belt, you tell me if you can push a 180 gr .308 bullet to 3000fps with a 30-06, i know it can be done without a belt, but the magnums were created in a time where rum's and wsm's didnt exsist, but to say a magnum doesnt have any ballistic advantage over its standard cased twin is wrong, take any standard case and compare it to any belted magnum then tell me there isnt any advantage.

Edited by pyro6999 - January/10/2008 at 09:43
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As I said, I would love to talk to some real cartridge manufacturing engineers to see why ballistically, not from a marketing standpoint, they have not removed the belt if there is such a great advantage, or little advantage.  You would think they would and thereby create a new round.  There must be a reason and I doubt it is just marketing and keeping the belt for "mystical" reasons.

Edited by Dolphin - January/10/2008 at 09:54
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i still think its about proper head space which to me means it has to be there, but like i said i dont know enough about that side of things
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