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New cartridge designs, belted vs. non-belted

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/2008 at 11:16
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:


  One other thing.  While handloaders may do it, I do not find it particularly safe to headspace on the shoulders only of a belted cartridge only. 
 
There is no difference in safety.  If anything it is MORE safe to shoot a case that more closely fits the chamber because the brass stretches less and therefore has less chance of splitting.
 If you headspace on the shoulders only and leave a gap between the forward face of the belt and chamber face, you have left a weak ring that only the brass of the cartridge is being subjected to pressure, as it is not adjacent and effaced to the chamber surface.  This could lead to a blow out.  Fortunately, it is a belted cartridge and built strong internally and you do not hear about this happening.  As stated, you would be surprised how many reloads headspace on both the shoulders and the belt.  Do the dykem blue test.  So, it is much less safe to headspace only on the shoulder if you leave a gap as noted above.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote varix3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/2008 at 11:18
Perhaps a little history, straight from the Director of Holland and Holland at a recent Griffin & Howe shoot will explain "why belts". The belt was originally conceived in 1905 and used on the 400/375 belted nitro case.
It had two purposes: 1. To allow the cartridge shoulder to be set back to ensure chambering in poor conditions like dirt, rust etc. in the chamber. In other words the cartridges were quite undersized vs the chamber dimensions which was not an issue as 2: The headspacing chore was handled by the belt. Since
there was little if any reloading back then in India & Africa case life was of no account. Cordite powder and corrosive primers made keeping the inside of rifle spotless, as is so easy today, very difficult.
Had this cartridge and the numerous belted ones that followed, been made without belts and undersized enough to feed in cruddy conditions they might not go bang due to slipping forward in the chamber or had they been made to proper dimensions to headspace on the shoulder, they might not chamber if the gun was nasty inside. Now the 416 Rigby kinda throws a wet blanket on H&Hs theory as it has no belt and seems to work fine. Insofar as modern belted cartriges like the Weatherby's, it's probably more marketing than necessity. Most of us who shoot belted cartriges today and reload, set them up to headspace on the shoulder as it improves case life and accuracy. Belts did have a reasonable functional reason when conceived. Sms and SSMs have a real function in making a lighter rifle and a theoretical one in that a short action is more accurate. The former makes a nice gun to carry, the latter probably of no effect in a hunting rifle in field conditions. Hope this of interest although certainly will not end the debate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/2008 at 11:20
Ted, I also understand completely about a snug fit for a cartridge in the chamber to prevent splitting the cartridge and preventing the escape of gasses.  You have brought this up several times as though it is a new concept to me. 

Edited by Dolphin - January/10/2008 at 11:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/2008 at 11:22
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

...but I still disagree that belted cases have to be inherently more inaccurate and the reasons pyro stated are why they are not more frequently used on the bench rest circuit.  
 
They are indeed inherently less accurate, but the difference is generally not noticeable in a hunting rifle.  You have to understand that in benchrest, they are thinking in terms of 0.001 of an inch.  When you have a rifle accurate enough to capitalize on minor differences in case design, you want to take advantage of every single edge you can get, because 0.010" difference in aggregate group size might be the difference between finishing first and middle of the pack in the benchrest game.  Headspacing on a shoulder where you have two mating conical surfaces to promote better alignment provides marginally better initial bullet centerline alignment concentric to the rifling than headspacing way back toward the rim.  So, no benchrest rounds are designed off belted cases.  Yes, it is a miniscule, minute difference, but a difference nonetheless.  Recoil is definitely a factor too, but recoil has nothing to do with belted vs. unbelted, as there are some serious recoiling rounds, i.e. the Ultra Mags, that have unbelted cases.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/2008 at 11:25
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

...but I still disagree that belted cases have to be inherently more inaccurate and the reasons pyro stated are why they are not more frequently used on the bench rest circuit.  
 
They are indeed inherently less accurate, but the difference is generally not noticeable in a hunting rifle.  You have to understand that in benchrest, they are thinking in terms of 0.001 of an inch.  When you have a rifle accurate enough to capitalize on minor differences in case design, you want to take advantage of every single edge you can get, because 0.010" difference in aggregate group size might be the difference between finishing first and middle of the pack in the benchrest game.  Headspacing on a shoulder where you have two mating conical surfaces to promote better alignment provides marginally better initial bullet centerline alignment concentric to the rifling than headspacing way back toward the rim.  So, no benchrest rounds are designed off belted cases.  Yes, it is a miniscule, minute difference, but a difference nonetheless.  Recoil is definitely a factor too, but recoil has nothing to do with belted vs. unbelted, as there are some serious recoiling rounds, i.e. the Ultra Mags, that have unbelted cases.
 But, if you state that fireformed belted cases only headspace on the shoulders, there should be no difference, as long as you use those cases?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/2008 at 12:06
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

if a belt isnt need then tell me why roy weatherby laboriously swagged a belt on a 30-06 case to make his 240wby mag?? was it a marketing ploy so it fit in with the rest of the wby lineup?
 
YES it absolutely WAS a marketing thing, because at the time, people were associating "belt" with "magnum" and Roy was a shrewd businessman.  He could have achieved exactly the same ballistic performance in all his cases without the belt.
 I would disagree with that statement.  Roy was a buisness man, but he did not have to belt that cartridge just like he did not have to belt the rocket.  How do you know it was a marketing thing.  That is the first that I have heard that was the case.  Roy was an up front guy and did alot to promote the sport.  People like Craig Boddington is I believe president of either the Weatherby Foundation or another Weatherby related group.  You should talk to him and get some straight scoop.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/2008 at 12:07
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

[QUOTE=Dolphin] List one disadvantage of a belted cartridge and prove it.
 
I already did, at length.
[/QUOTE
 I was talking to Focus, but prove it, is something that can only be done on a range with extensive shooting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/2008 at 12:12
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

I also made the point regarding why the belts are not coming off, but I still have to ask, with all the new cartridges, there must be some reason why the belt is not coming off to create a new cartridge in the same caliber as this would generate sales of new rifles and ammo.  Sure, they do not want to down play the belt, but is that the only reason?  Why haven't any wildcatters taken the belt off of a 300 Wby. or win. mag. and expanded the cartridge size to come up with a super magnum?  Why hasn't Wby. done this?  .
 
If you are asking why the mfg's aren't removing the belt from existing belted mags, it's because it would be stupid and unsafe, as you would then have a chamber with the belt cut in it and when you fire the cartridge without the belt, it could expand to the point of separating the case head.
 
If you're talking about removing the belt on entirely NEW cartridge designs, that is exactly what IS happening right now with all the new magnums.  Am I missing something?
Ted,  you are again under estimating the intelligence of the people on this site.  I obviously do not mean to just remove the belt and leave the case as is, that would be stupid.  It is sort of like leaving a gap between the front face of the belt and chamber face and headspacing only on the shoulder.  And the new magnums are primarily short fat magnums, not long slender magnums, that is what you are missing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Focus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/2008 at 12:38
Dolphin I was done with this debate cause like I said on another post a while back.....its all about preferences ...that simple. If you like belteds and they float your boat, great. I don't need to prove anything, and really am not interested enough to type anymore posts about it. I can agree to disagree with you and not miss a wink :>) You are far more excited about this than anybody else, so feel like you want, and believe what you want....you won't change my mind or understanding about it, and I don't care to change yours. The fact no benchresters are building and designing any new target rounds with a belt proves it all concerning accuracy in my mind. Those guys don't miss a trick, or fail to capitolize on anything that would increase their edge.....Later...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/2008 at 13:31
Originally posted by Focus Focus wrote:

Dolphin I was done with this debate cause like I said on another post a while back.....its all about preferences ...that simple. If you like belteds and they float your boat, great. I don't need to prove anything, and really am not interested enough to type anymore posts about it. I can agree to disagree with you and not miss a wink :>) You are far more excited about this than anybody else, so feel like you want, and believe what you want....you won't change my mind or understanding about it, and I don't care to change yours. The fact no benchresters are building and designing any new target rounds with a belt proves it all concerning accuracy in my mind. Those guys don't miss a trick, or fail to capitolize on anything that would increase their edge.....Later...

Focus
 No problem.  You are correct, we all have are preferences and I do not necessarily have a preference for a belted or non-belted cartridge.  I have an equal number of rifles in each and love the 308.  I think I have 3 rifles in that caliber.  I am just trying to get at the heart of the matter.  Personally, I do not believe that bench rest shooters have to be the standard to which we all should look towards in looking and examining a caliber.  We should look at the hunter and what environment he shoots in and how that round will stand up to what it is in store for.  Bench rest shooters are in a controlled situation, at least from the standpoint of the shooter and his equipment.  Weather is a factor, but even then, there are wind indicators.  So, in essence, while I will not change your mind, you will not change mine, but at least I will walk away knowing that I really love both the belted and non-belted.  Two of my favorite calibers are the 260 Remington and the 308, both non-belted and I guess fortunately or unfortunately, used by bench rest shooters.


Edited by Dolphin - January/10/2008 at 13:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/2008 at 13:38
i  myself have no use for any info related to hunting calibers coming from target shooters, that would be like letting your golf pro pick your proctologist, that sob would give you the dr with the biggest damn fingers he could find. i have a foundness for many standard cases myself, 22-250 .243 260 7-08 30-06 280 and or course the belted case as well.

Edited by pyro6999 - January/10/2008 at 13:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/2008 at 13:48
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

i  myself have no use for any info related to hunting calibers coming from target shooters, that would be like letting your golf pro picking your proctologist, that sob would give you the dr with the biggest damn fingers he could find. i have a foundness for many standard cases myself, 22-250 .243 260 7-08 30-06 280 and or course the belted case as well.
Good point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tahqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/2008 at 13:55
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

that would be like letting your golf pro picking your proctologist, that sob would give you the dr with the biggest damn fingers he could find. i have a foundness for many standard cases myself, 22-250 .243 260 7-08 30-06 280 and or course the belted case as well.
 
 
That's funny!
I also have a fondess for standard magnums, 7 RM and .375 H&H. The belt doesn't mean anything in terms of hunting accuracy, as was pointed out, and it sucks for reloading.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/2008 at 13:57
i dont pay any attention to it at all myself, maybe i should start, i dont do any of that spacing off the shoulder stuff like you guys talk about how do you go about doing it?? i hadnt ever heard of that before.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/2008 at 14:07
I am going to get one of Larry Willis' universal collet dies for belted cartridges that neck sizes and sizes just above the belt without re-sizing the case, for proper headspacing.  You can use it on all belted cartridges, or at least the ones he lists, as it has a built in measuring gauge.  I think they are about 89.95.  I will have to check his website for sure.  Last time I checked, I think he was sold out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/2008 at 14:40
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

[
 If you headspace on the shoulders only and leave a gap between the forward face of the belt and chamber face, you have left a weak ring that only the brass of the cartridge is being subjected to pressure, as it is not adjacent and effaced to the chamber surface.  This could lead to a blow out.  Fortunately, it is a belted cartridge and built strong internally and you do not hear about this happening.  As stated, you would be surprised how many reloads headspace on both the shoulders and the belt.  Do the dykem blue test.  So, it is much less safe to headspace only on the shoulder if you leave a gap as noted above.
 
No, because the clearance between the front face of the belt on a fireformed case is much much less than the space that normally exists between a new or full length sized factory case and your rifle's chamber, so the brass isn't stretching very far at all.  We're talking maybe 0.002" or so gap.  When you full length resize your cases, you have more than 0.010" gap between the sized case and the chamber, so you actually have MORE stretching going on with a FL resized case, which is why your brass doesn't last as long with FL resizing.  All you're trying to do by making the case headspace on the shoulder is help initially orient the bullet more concentrically to the centerline of the bore and improve accuracy.  The only disadvantage to using fireformed cases and headspacing on the shoulder is that chambering and extraction can be sticker since the fireformed case fits tighter to the chamber.  There are absolutely zero safety ramifications to this.  FL resizing offers the advantage of feeding and extracting better during hunting conditions because of the extra clearance between the case and chamber.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/2008 at 15:11
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

Ted, I also understand completely about a snug fit for a cartridge in the chamber to prevent splitting the cartridge and preventing the escape of gasses.  You have brought this up several times as though it is a new concept to me. 
 
If you truly understand this concept, then why do you keep saying that headspacing on the shoulder is "dangerous?"  It isn't.  Not at all.  That is exactly what you have when you headspace on the shoulder instead of the belt, a "snug fit."
 
I'm not busting your chops, buddy, I just feel like I'm not doing a good job of explaining what I'm trying to say here, because it's apparent you aren't fully understanding the concepts by the fact you keep asking the same questions in different ways.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/2008 at 15:20
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

Ted,  you are again under estimating the intelligence of the people on this site.  I obviously do not mean to just remove the belt and leave the case as is, that would be stupid.  It is sort of like leaving a gap between the front face of the belt and chamber face and headspacing only on the shoulder.  And the new magnums are primarily short fat magnums, not long slender magnums, that is what you are missing.
 
What is it I'm missing?  The new magnums aren't primarily short, fat magnums.  The new cartridges you're inquiring about ARE being produced, and in fact are even pretty popular.  They're called the Ultra Mags.  The Ultra Mags and the short mags are both based off the same parent case, the old .404 Jeffery, which is unbelted.  The Ultra Mags have greater case capacity than even the Weatherby rounds, and they produce higher velocities, more energy, and the same or greater pressures than their Weatherby counterparts, and yet, they don't have a belt.  Why is that, if the belt is so necessary?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/2008 at 15:22
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

i dont pay any attention to it at all myself, maybe i should start, i dont do any of that spacing off the shoulder stuff like you guys talk about how do you go about doing it?? i hadnt ever heard of that before.
 
Simply neck size only when you resize your cases (using a neck sizing die rather than a FL sizing die) and -- presto -- you're doing it.  However, as I previously stated, it doesn't make a huge difference in a hunting rifle, but it will extend the life of your brass a little.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/2008 at 15:23
hmm so could i technically just back my fl die out of the press some and accomplish the same thing???
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