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On shooting groups, and wankers |
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Rancid Coolaid
MODERATOR Joined: January/19/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9318 |
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Posted: May/16/2018 at 13:39 |
If your version of a good range session is a pile of brass, a mountain of targets, and one picture of one 3-shot, 100-yard group - exclaiming how your 1/3MOA rifle can do it all day long, you, sir or madame, are a wanker.
We all need an occasional decompression shoot, call it lead therapy or group therapy or whatever; but few real marksmen do much documenting of these things. For me, the 3-shot group in photo form is much akin to a stupid kid getting 3 consecutive answers right in trivial pursuit: he might miss the next 20, but he’ll proclaim himself an intellectual god forevermore and always reference those 3. In short, the 100 yard range session will tell you a little bit about your gun, your ammo, your trigger pull, your breathing control, your sight alignment and sight picture, and your natural point of aim; but not in 3 rounds. My 100-yard bench groups are usually 10-20 rounds, with the understanding there is limited value in the effort, in truth, If you want to see how you are shooting, stretch out to 300 and beyond. At 300, minor variations in cheek weld and trigger pull become a factor and show up on papers. At 500 yards, your wind call starts to play a part, and a bad pull results in a deviation from the bull; these aren’t nearly as ego-affirming as the 100-yard efforts, but they will truly demonstrate your skill and the precision and accuracy of your rifle. Beyond 700 yards, you are venturing where the pro’s spend their time. At 700+, a bad wind call is a miss, a jerked trigger is a miss, a rushed position is a miss; this is where marksmanship basics either shine - or don’t. By all means, post your 3-shot groups, but don’t be offended when I ask you to print it and send it to me in paper form, so I can use it for a bit of personal hygiene. If you want to impress, let’s see 20 rounds, and not just the bull but the whole target, with no kestrel thrown “hap-hazardous” on the target, trying to cover a flier. Marksmanship, like everything in life, takes time and effort. Shortcuts abound, which is why - at my usual public range - I see 20 guys at the 100 yard line and none at the 600. If we want to shoot for groups, lets do it for real. |
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Respect is something you earn. Equality is something you whine about not being given. |
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BeltFed
Optics Retard Joined: February/12/2008 Location: Ky Status: Offline Points: 22284 |
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Supertool threw down a challenge back in 2012. 20 rounds inside of 2 inches squared at 200yds without stopping to let the rifle cool; just shoot sight and shoot at your pace. I took it since I was putting my slightly modified rifle against his custom rifle. These are my results. I couldn't meet his challenge, but I wasn't far off. |
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Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.
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supertool73
Optics God Superstool Joined: January/03/2008 Status: Offline Points: 11814 |
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I have since upgraded that challenge. You must have missed it. 100 rounds in 2 inches at 400 yards. Hahaha Good shooting by the way.
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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.
"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own." |
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JGRaider
Optics Master Joined: February/06/2008 Status: Offline Points: 1540 |
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Interesting to me why anyone would care what someone else does for a range session.
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BeltFed
Optics Retard Joined: February/12/2008 Location: Ky Status: Offline Points: 22284 |
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While agree with you about what someone else does at the range, I think the real issue of the topic is those who brag about how accurate their rifles are and how well they can shoot without any real proof. |
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Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.
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BeltFed
Optics Retard Joined: February/12/2008 Location: Ky Status: Offline Points: 22284 |
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Hmmm, sounds interesting. I can take all day, right? |
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Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.
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RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
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Did you write the above essay or copy it from somewhere else, RC? The reason I ask is I don’t picture you as one who typically uses the word “wanker.”
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Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
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supertool73
Optics God Superstool Joined: January/03/2008 Status: Offline Points: 11814 |
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Here is another fun challenge. I used to do this, but have not for years. Everytime you take your rifle to the range (if working with the same load). Fire your cold bore shot at the same target each time, then take it down and save it for the next trip. See what kind of group you get over 20 or 30 rounds. I used to do it with my Lilja barreled .308. That rifle was pretty consistent with the cold bore. I think this would be great for a hunting rifle, since most of the time your first shot is cold bore. Can be very telling of a rifle. Some rifles cold bore is really off a lot. At long distances it can really affect your shot on a deer or yote. My Lilja was always 1inch or so low and about 1/2 to the left of the next shot(s) from the warm bore.
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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.
"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own." |
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Tip69
Optics Master Extraordinaire Tip Stick Joined: September/27/2005 Location: Nebraska Status: Offline Points: 4155 |
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that would explain A LOT!!!!
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take em!
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Longhunter
Optics Journeyman Joined: February/02/2006 Status: Offline Points: 466 |
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If long range shooting is your game, power on. But please don't deride someone else's fun. We need all the interested shooters we can get. A new shooter needs to be congratulated on his 4" 100 yard group, and encouraged (and taught) how to do much better.
I've shot skeet and trap for fun, birds and game to eat, trophies to mount, and to keep my self-defense skills sharp. It's all been fun. Interestingly, a lightweight pistol or revolver will also show you your shooting faults REAL fast. And it won't take 20 or 100 rounds to do it.
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koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13181 |
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Last time I was at the range I shot a 10 shot, 8" 100yard group and I was pretty proud of myself. To each his own.
ILya |
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Kickboxer
MODERATOR Moderator Joined: February/13/2008 Status: Offline Points: 23679 |
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Just because you were upside down with a bag over your head... so what...
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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.
There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living |
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koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13181 |
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Nothing that extreme. Just off hand.
ILya |
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8shots
Optics Jedi Knight Lord Of The Flies Joined: March/14/2007 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 6253 |
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My experience has been that with a common hunting rifle you cannot (mostly) shoot a 3 shot clover or 5 shot clover grouping. I always blamed my own skills and kept on and on trying. When I did get that 3 shot clover I was mighty proud of myself.
And this is were most shooters get stuck. Our ranges are filled every Saturday with 90% shooting at the 100yds range. They shoot and eagerly inspect, analyse and disect each grouping. Only after I got into a custom built rifle with all the tweaks did I realise that the rifle was the limiting factor for me and probably also for most shooters. A 3 shot or 5 shot clover at 100yds is a no brainer with a custom rifle. I never even shoot a 100yds any more. But I do not look down at the 100yarders and the effort they put into their shooting. I was once there too. Edited by 8shots - May/17/2018 at 04:25 |
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Rancid Coolaid
MODERATOR Joined: January/19/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9318 |
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I am in no way looking down on shooters at the 100 yard line. This is where we tell new shooters to begin - if not 50 yards. It is where one gets a feel for the gear and begins to build a skill set. If, 10 years later, you are still shooting 3-shot groups so you can photograph it, therein is the wankerdom.
If you took offense at the first paragraph, you either didn’t read it well, or didn’t pay attention to the details, or you just wanted to find something about which to be offended. The point - and maybe I should start including this for clarity - is that a 3-shot group does not a marksman make, nor an accurate/precise rifle make. I shoot many groups, for therapy, for skill honing and building; but I don’t post a group with a proclamation of my godhood. We’ve all seen just this happen. And it gets worse when someone wants to sell said rifle. Posts abound online with claims of 1/3MOA or 1/4MOA rifles, almost always with a 3-shot group to “prove.” When improving one’s marksmanship skills is the goal, the process is supremely different from that of simply wanting to impress someone with a trophy. You get better by shooting correctly, and often. And once you master 100 yards, moving to either greater distance or smaller target is how you continue to improve. Some shooters only have a 100 yard range, I get that. Again, this isn’t meant to disparage the sport, quite the opposite, in fact. Shoot often, improve your skills, learn, stretch; which is why I encourage those accomplished at 100 yards to step over to the 300 yard range - and beyond - where the real work begins. The 100 yard range hides many of the marksmanship shortfalls - which is why so many enjoy it. If you don’t get a perfect trigger pull, you probably only pulled by 1/2 inch; at range, that bad pull translates to something very different, and far less acceptable. As in life, it is all about comfort zones. And Ted, after several years of losing sight of the Ozzy Man and his commentating, I have found him again. It impacts my vocabulary, much to my wife’s extreme displeasure. “Wanker” is just a great word. |
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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn. Equality is something you whine about not being given. |
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BeltFed
Optics Retard Joined: February/12/2008 Location: Ky Status: Offline Points: 22284 |
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If I wasn't so lazy this sounds like it would be a very informative test. I shoot an AR10 SASS that will group about 1" at 100yds. No big deal, but what makes it a 1moa rifle is the first of 5 shots. The first shot is always about an inch away from the other four that went through the same hole. I'd be happy with that if the next 15 rounds continued to group like the first four, but they don't; they group about one MOA. Just makes me not like that rifle. Maybe if I tried supertool's test, I find I have a sub MOA rifle on a cold bore shot, or not. |
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Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.
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3_tens
Optics Jedi Master Joined: January/08/2007 Location: Oklahoma Status: Offline Points: 7853 |
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Finding a place to shoot, where you can reach out past 100 yards is the bigger challenge anymore.
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Folks ain't got a sense of humor no more. They don't laugh they just get sore.
Need to follow the rules. Just hard to determine which set of rules to follow Now the rules have changed again. |
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Kickboxer
MODERATOR Moderator Joined: February/13/2008 Status: Offline Points: 23679 |
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I used to, every time I went to the range, shoot standing, kneeling, sitting, prone... offhand and with rests (of various types). I've not done that in a while... it takes time. I need to get back to it. I've not shot a 50 round group in an age and haven't shot a 20 round group in a couple of years. As the song says "there never seems to be enough time to do the things you wanna do... once you find them..." There are times I'm happy with 3 round groups... there is a lot of information that can be gained from them. I'm really not much more impressed with 5 round groups. I tend toward 10 round groups...and more... if I'm really testing myself, the rifle and the ammo. It's not a one or the other thing... they all play together, every time one shoots. I set up a rifle for a friend a while back. I was shooting 1/2 in or less 5 round groups dead center at 100 with it. Kris could shoot decent groups, but was almost a full inch off center. I helped him adjust the scope for him and he was hitting centers easily... Then I was over an inch off center... we just don't see things the same way.
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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.
There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living |
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koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13181 |
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I do most of my shooting prone and offhand with bench and some other field positions mixed in occasionally. I did not grow up shooting, so off hand does not come naturally to me.
ILya
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Kickboxer
MODERATOR Moderator Joined: February/13/2008 Status: Offline Points: 23679 |
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I fired my first 12ga shotgun when I was 5. Knocked me down, but I got up and hit the target on the next shot (turkey shoot at the VFW club). I hunted by myself when I was 8. You shoulda been there, ILya...
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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.
There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living |
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